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Thread: Ask an ESTJ!

  1. #1361
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Well... to a degree, ESTJs nag by nature because they care. If they don't give a shit, they won't nag you. But if they worry about things not going smoothly for you - if they're concerned about your well-being - etc etc etc - then they consider it their duty as a friend/family member to step in. Worst case scenario: something terrible happens, and if only you had stepped in, the terrible thing could have been avoided.
    Her nagging has been going on for nigh on 20+ years. As of yet, nothing bad has happened.

    But that's more Te dominance, than ESTJ-ness. ENTJs nag too, right?
    Don't know about other ENTJs but no, I don't nag and hate being nagged. It's okay for someone to want to live a different life and be different. Perhaps that's the cognitive function difference of Ni vs. Si. Ni can shift perspectives but Si is attached to concrete values.

    When she nags me, I push her back and she shuts up for awhile. Then it starts all over again and I keep pushing her back. While in the past, I've put up with her boundary pushing, lately, I've been losing patience. Tempted to just cut her off.

  2. #1362
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    What ALWAYS happens (and I say "always" without exaggerating; this has happened with all three confirmed INxPs that I have debated) is that the debate goes around and around in circles and never GOES anywhere and I get all frustrated and thinking "Why do I have no idea what we're debating now? Where are they even going with this? I thought we were done!!!"... only to find out that they were debating "for intellectual stimulation" or "to focus their thoughts" or something.
    I don't have any advice as to how you might go about preventing such "debates" in the future (short of arguing things so hard into the ground that your INFP friend either concedes or decides never to debate with you again...or, you know, avoiding contentious topics), but IME, the bolded sounds A LOT like a last-ditch attempt for the INFP to salvage their dignity.
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  3. #1363
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    only to find out that they were debating "for intellectual stimulation" or "to focus their thoughts" or something.
    It strikes me as odd that there is any other reason to debate! But, ok, I can understand that some people do not like debates that run off on tangents. In this case, I'd avoid all topics that could potentially lead to a debate, like 'moral issues'. Unfortunately, this can reduce your interaction to day-to-day small talk, or smiling and nodding... In an attempt to avoid anything contentious with my SJ friends (They are the ones who most dislike debating, sorry) I think I've killed our interactions altogether, but then again, everything turns into a debate with them due to constant misinterpretation. Perhaps you will have better luck, especially if you have less misinterpretation.

    -------
    Question...
    How can I keep information private from an STJ? I am going to be doing an activity for 2 hours that I don't want the STJ to know about.

    Friend: Can you meet up on [some]day?
    Me: Uhh... sure, so long as it's not between 2 and 4
    Friend: Oh? What are you doing then?

    What do I say here? Is she asking because she actually wants to know? I don't want to lie to her, but I don't want to tell her. It doesn't concern her. It's personal. I really don't think it's relevant. (She has the attitude that I owe her every minute of my free time, seriously. I'm sure this is not type related.)

    Thanks.
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  4. #1364
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    Quote Originally Posted by strychnine View Post
    (They are the ones who most dislike debating, sorry)
    Really? ESTJs? The one's I've known have been the "debate for fun" type, and they're in it to win it.
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  5. #1365
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    Quote Originally Posted by strychnine View Post
    Question...
    How can I keep information private from an STJ? I am going to be doing an activity for 2 hours that I don't want the STJ to know about.

    Friend: Can you meet up on [some]day?
    Me: Uhh... sure, so long as it's not between 2 and 4
    Friend: Oh? What are you doing then?

    What do I say here? Is she asking because she actually wants to know? I don't want to lie to her, but I don't want to tell her. It doesn't concern her. It's personal. I really don't think it's relevant. (She has the attitude that I owe her every minute of my free time, seriously. I'm sure this is not type related.)

    Thanks.
    If I'm comfortable enough to ask you why you're busy, I'd expect you to be comfortable enough to tell me.

    Immature that it might sound, I wouldn't like it if one of my friends all of a sudden said "none of your business" or simply withheld information. It's resulted in some jerk face behavior before.

    I'd go with being honest about wtf you're doing. What's it really going to hurt if you tell her? You: "Hey, I have a doc appt." Her: "Orly? What's wrong?" You: "I don't want to talk about it." Done. If she pushes for information after that, then by all means tell her to back off. Or You: "I'm seeing X, Y and Z for drinks." Her: "Can I come?" You: "It's not my party to invite people to, sorry." Again...done.

    I very rarely see the need to be so secretive about my actions.
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  6. #1366
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    Quote Originally Posted by strychnine View Post
    It strikes me as odd that there is any other reason to debate! But, ok, I can understand that some people do not like debates that run off on tangents. In this case, I'd avoid all topics that could potentially lead to a debate, like 'moral issues'. Unfortunately, this can reduce your interaction to day-to-day small talk, or smiling and nodding... In an attempt to avoid anything contentious with my SJ friends (They are the ones who most dislike debating, sorry) I think I've killed our interactions altogether, but then again, everything turns into a debate with them due to constant misinterpretation. Perhaps you will have better luck, especially if you have less misinterpretation.

    -------
    Question...
    How can I keep information private from an STJ? I am going to be doing an activity for 2 hours that I don't want the STJ to know about.

    Friend: Can you meet up on [some]day?
    Me: Uhh... sure, so long as it's not between 2 and 4
    Friend: Oh? What are you doing then?

    What do I say here? Is she asking because she actually wants to know? I don't want to lie to her, but I don't want to tell her. It doesn't concern her. It's personal. I really don't think it's relevant. (She has the attitude that I owe her every minute of my free time, seriously. I'm sure this is not type related.)

    Thanks.
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  7. #1367
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcmartinez84 View Post
    If I'm comfortable enough to ask you why you're busy, I'd expect you to be comfortable enough to tell me.
    This assumes that the friendship has equal reciprocation. That both parties are equally trusting of one another, and equally invested in the friendship. That isn't the case here.

    Quote Originally Posted by mcmartinez84 View Post
    Immature that it might sound, I wouldn't like it if one of my friends all of a sudden said "none of your business" or simply withheld information. It's resulted in some jerk face behavior before.

    I'd go with being honest about wtf you're doing. What's it really going to hurt if you tell her? You: "Hey, I have a doc appt." Her: "Orly? What's wrong?" You: "I don't want to talk about it." Done. If she pushes for information after that, then by all means tell her to back off. Or You: "I'm seeing X, Y and Z for drinks." Her: "Can I come?" You: "It's not my party to invite people to, sorry." Again...done.

    I very rarely see the need to be so secretive about my actions.
    The problem is that she thinks she is entitled to my time, as I mentioned in the last post. It's not so much what I'm doing, but that she thinks her desire to meet with me trumps my ability to do the thing. It's not as serious as a doctor appointment or what not. That would be enough to get her to shut up about meeting up, surely. On the other hand, what I'm doing is not one of what she calls my 'duties', and it's not 'productive' which to her means it's 'free time' which means she is entitled to it.

    We may disagree here, but I don't think anyone is entitled to my time, much less a friend who makes me uncomfortable.

    I guess I'll have to brave the jerk-face behaviour. If she throws a shitstorm, even to the extent of ending the friendship, I can't say there will be much to lose. It might even be a favour, because I am getting to the point of fantasizing about ending the friendship myself.
    Strychnine is all-natural,
    So strychnine is all good.
    It's Godly and righteous,
    So eat it, you should.
    Who are you to refuse nature's will?


    Don't use the multiquote; it was planted by the devil to deceive us.

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  8. #1368
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Really? ESTJs? The one's I've known have been the "debate for fun" type, and they're in it to win it.
    I said "my SJ friends" -- not specifically ESTJs. Yeah but, these ones are not particularly interested in arguing anything. I may not know them well enough, so they may just be uncomfortable or something. They only really want to discuss things if there is a pre-determined end-goal of action, 'getting things done', as the stereotype goes (It's funny because one of them actually says, she has to get things done haha).

    I have always interpreted 'debating for fun' to mean that they enjoy the process of debating, changing topics, arguing whatever side, taking no side, etc. I don't see how it can be fun if you're in it to win. That sounds more like, enjoying winning. Do they enjoy debating regardless of the outcome, meaning: is it still fun if they lose?

    Quote Originally Posted by mrcockburn View Post
    it's easy, just lie.
    I would rather end the friendship by refusing to answer, than lie. Not because I'm against lying but because I don't want to continue the friendship.

    Well, that was a helpful realization. Like when you throw the coin in the air and you secretly know which side you want it to land on? Yeah, that. Thanks guys.
    Strychnine is all-natural,
    So strychnine is all good.
    It's Godly and righteous,
    So eat it, you should.
    Who are you to refuse nature's will?


    Don't use the multiquote; it was planted by the devil to deceive us.

    Social Role: Asscrack/Piece of Shit/Public Defecator/Spiteful Urinator


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  9. #1369
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    Quote Originally Posted by strychnine View Post
    I have always interpreted 'debating for fun' to mean that they enjoy the process of debating, changing topics, arguing whatever side, taking no side, etc. I don't see how it can be fun if you're in it to win. That sounds more like, enjoying winning. Do they enjoy debating regardless of the outcome, meaning: is it still fun if they lose?
    This is a bit like asking "how can baseball be fun if you play to win?"

    Also, I don't think "changing topics" or "taking no side" qualify as debate. Discussion, yes, but not debate. Debate is a competitive activity; when it ceases to be competitive, it ceases to be debate. Without that competitive element, it would become more like an informal exchange of ideas or a run-of-the-mill intellectual discussion.

    As for "arguing whatever side," I think that the only things preventing someone from doing that would be (1) disinterest in debate or (2) some moral inhibition. Since ESTJs are not exactly the most ethical type, I don't see why, if they enjoyed debate in the first place (which they may or may not, though it seems that they're the type of people who would), they wouldn't also like to play devil's advocate.
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  10. #1370
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    This is a bit like asking "how can baseball be fun if you play to win?"

    Also, I don't think "changing topics" or "taking no side" qualify as debate. Discussion, yes, but not debate. Debate is a competitive activity; when it ceases to be competitive, it ceases to be debate. Without that competitive element, it would become more like an informal exchange of ideas or a run-of-the-mill intellectual discussion.

    As for "arguing whatever side," I think that the only things preventing someone from doing that would be (1) disinterest in debate or (2) some moral inhibition. Since ESTJs are not exactly the most ethical type, I don't see why, if they enjoyed debate in the first place (which they may or may not, though it seems that they're the type of people who would), they wouldn't also like to play devil's advocate.
    Well, do the ESTJs in question still enjoy it if they lose? I would imagine frustration in that case, not happiness?

    Ok, I guess we have different meanings for debate. I don't care if it's competitive or not. I would suggest competitiveness = argument, actually. Sometimes topics blend together -- I don't think going to a closely related topic to flesh out your argument invalidates debate. I think I can easily take no side as well -- I can argue my points and the other person's points. What is that? A discussion? No, not IMO. It's a debate. There are two sides butting heads. It's not my fault if the other person doesn't make good points, so I have to argue for them to make it worthwhile.

    Or (3), based on my experience: an inability to see another POV as valid, and so one can only argue for their own view.

    This conversation is slightly pointless, but yeah, I think I have to disagree with you.
    Strychnine is all-natural,
    So strychnine is all good.
    It's Godly and righteous,
    So eat it, you should.
    Who are you to refuse nature's will?


    Don't use the multiquote; it was planted by the devil to deceive us.

    Social Role: Asscrack/Piece of Shit/Public Defecator/Spiteful Urinator


    A different type everyday - so no need to type me anymore. But feel free to enjoy the sound of your own asscrack.

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