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Thread: Ask an ESTJ!

  1. #1351
    Writing... Tamske's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Totally. Although they obviously don't have to be old - you can tell that my Ne is pretty good already
    I can tell indeed:-)

    And at first, for my and hubby, it was the other way around. I had been suppressing Ne in order to be attractive (I had some experience from a not-so-good relationship; luckily this experience turned out false). I can honestly say I fell in love for my ESTJ when I witnessed his Ne use.
    Got questions? Ask an ENTP!
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  2. #1352
    lords of summer EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tamske View Post
    I can tell indeed:-)


    And at first, for my and hubby, it was the other way around. I had been suppressing Ne in order to be attractive (I had some experience from a not-so-good relationship; luckily this experience turned out false). I can honestly say I fell in love for my ESTJ when I witnessed his Ne use.
    Exactly! Ne is one of the most lovable functions, in my opinion. I see it in people and I can't help but them and want to be their friend - just like what INTPness was saying.
    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"

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    want to ask me something? go for it!

  3. #1353
    lords of summer EJCC's Avatar
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    Okay, question for non-ESTJs (or ESTJs who have lots of experience with INxPs):

    I have a habit of getting sucked into arguments with INxPs, and I always regret it afterwards. What ALWAYS happens (and I say "always" without exaggerating; this has happened with all three confirmed INxPs that I have debated) is that the debate goes around and around in circles and never GOES anywhere and I get all frustrated and thinking "Why do I have no idea what we're debating now? Where are they even going with this? I thought we were done!!!"... only to find out that they were debating "for intellectual stimulation" or "to focus their thoughts" or something.

    How can I notice this coming and nip it in the bud, before getting sucked in??? This has to stop!*

    *I mean, I know that it's my problem and not theirs, so when I say "this has to stop", I mean "I need to stop debating them like that".
    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"

    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
    1w2/7w6/3w4 so/sx (enneagram)
    lawful good (D&D) / ravenclaw + wampus (HP) / boros legion (M:TG)
    conscientious > sensitive > serious (oldham)
    want to ask me something? go for it!

  4. #1354
    Saponi Redbone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sui generis View Post

    Your ESTJ sounds like he's in a rough spot. Desperate-like.
    He is, I think. And he's so goddamn tough that I think he is really bewildered as to why things are "not working". This is an a end of the road experience for him. He is doing a lot of what Fidelia mentioned about making adjustments and adaptations to speaking another love's language but it's a no go. I think he cannot fathom the possibility that someone may just want too damn much...you know, more than what any person ought to give? He tries harder instead of smarter and it's put him in a bad rut. In a nutshell wondering, "I am applying the solution and doing all the right things, why is this not working?!" The order and stability he seeks keeps eluding him and he doesn't understand why. Some days he has it and other days, it is completely absent. It's driving him really nuts.

    Aww, that’s so wonderful He must have really, really needed that. I relate a lot to the “hell, I’ve said too much” vibe, because that’s almost always how I feel after opening up to someone. But what happened with your ESTJ was that he opened up with a purpose – i.e. self-comfort – and he got exactly what he was hoping for! Congrats to him and to you – that is an incredible milestone. (I say “incredible” because there are VERY few people in my life who I can have conversations like that with. Although to be fair, NTPs are really good at getting to the heart of things; if I talk to my dad and I’m really upset or crying, he won’t be fazed at all by my outward display but will go directly to the problem solving, and that’s absolutely wonderful and makes me feel calm and in control
    I think he did. I never heard him talk like that. Upset and almost frenetic. Well...for him. The conversation didn't start that way but once he really started talking about what was bothering him, it was like he just couldn't stop. I felt bad for him because all I could hear is "I'm doing this right, why isn't it having the results I expect?" He didn't say it but I could almost hear him say, "Will you tell me what I'm doing wrong here?" I think it must be really painful for an ESTJ to be doing everything like they should and everything is still all fucked up. He really didn't need much feedback from me except to listen and reassure him that no matter how things turned out to take comfort in the fact that he was doing the right things and to just continue. The real solution lies outside of himself and I don't think he is ready to hear that.

  5. #1355
    Saponi Redbone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Okay, question for non-ESTJs (or ESTJs who have lots of experience with INxPs):

    I have a habit of getting sucked into arguments with INxPs, and I always regret it afterwards. What ALWAYS happens (and I say "always" without exaggerating; this has happened with all three confirmed INxPs that I have debated) is that the debate goes around and around in circles and never GOES anywhere and I get all frustrated and thinking "Why do I have no idea what we're debating now? Where are they even going with this? I thought we were done!!!"... only to find out that they were debating "for intellectual stimulation" or "to focus their thoughts" or something.

    How can I notice this coming and nip it in the bud, before getting sucked in??? This has to stop!*

    *I mean, I know that it's my problem and not theirs, so when I say "this has to stop", I mean "I need to stop debating them like that".
    When any debate opens, this is where it will lead. I can completely identify with debating for the intellectual stimulation or to sharpen or focus my thoughts. That is the purpose of the debate--nothing more, nothing less. I don't want it to necessarily go anywhere. I love it but I have come to realize that other people don't enjoy this at all. It's either seen as confrontational or as you said, going nowhere.

    My ESTJ made me friend someone on FB who enjoyed this...he got sick of me trying to engage me in debates.

    Hmm...I didn't know that an INFP would do this...thought this was more of a XNTP trait.

  6. #1356

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    Why does my ESTJ friend keep nagging me to socialise more? What if I kept nagging her to stop nagging her own child?

  7. #1357
    Aquaria mrcockburn's Avatar
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  8. #1358

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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Okay, question for non-ESTJs (or ESTJs who have lots of experience with INxPs):

    I have a habit of getting sucked into arguments with INxPs, and I always regret it afterwards. What ALWAYS happens (and I say "always" without exaggerating; this has happened with all three confirmed INxPs that I have debated) is that the debate goes around and around in circles and never GOES anywhere and I get all frustrated and thinking "Why do I have no idea what we're debating now? Where are they even going with this? I thought we were done!!!"... only to find out that they were debating "for intellectual stimulation" or "to focus their thoughts" or something.

    How can I notice this coming and nip it in the bud, before getting sucked in??? This has to stop!*

    *I mean, I know that it's my problem and not theirs, so when I say "this has to stop", I mean "I need to stop debating them like that".
    All I can say is that I know how you must feel about this and I've seen it happen with myself and my (male) ESTJ friend. That's to say...it happens with us and other people, not with each other.

    We have a mutual (female) ISTJ friend and I'm their translator. I know what he means when he says something. I know what she means when she says something. And neither one of them can understand each other without it resulting in bickering. When I explain things to the ISTJ, she thinks I'm taking the ESTJ's side. When I explain to the ESTJ, he just gets a funny look and goes on about how complicated the ISTJ is. I've gotta give him credit where it's due tho. She's a little complicated and it's taken me awhile to figure her out. And I usually think he's right anyway

    The only time I kinda debate for the sake of it is to learn more about something. And even then, I don't think I'm debating. I ask questions to understand wtf is going on. Some people might think it's debate-ish. *shrug*

    Oh, and I know none of that it related to NPs. D:
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  9. #1359
    lords of summer EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redbone View Post
    I think he did. I never heard him talk like that. Upset and almost frenetic. Well...for him. The conversation didn't start that way but once he really started talking about what was bothering him, it was like he just couldn't stop. I felt bad for him because all I could hear is "I'm doing this right, why isn't it having the results I expect?" He didn't say it but I could almost hear him say, "Will you tell me what I'm doing wrong here?" I think it must be really painful for an ESTJ to be doing everything like they should and everything is still all fucked up. He really didn't need much feedback from me except to listen and reassure him that no matter how things turned out to take comfort in the fact that he was doing the right things and to just continue. The real solution lies outside of himself and I don't think he is ready to hear that.
    Poor guy. I really, really relate to that. I read this entire quote and wanted to bold practically the entire thing, just to emphasize how much I relate. Seeing things that are wrong and being unable to fix them is definitely one of the most upsetting things for ESTJs (except for universally upsetting, tragic things, of course). I've vented at people in a very similar way to that - with practically your exact quote: "Will you tell me what I'm doing wrong here?" And you did exactly the right thing, in telling him that he's doing everything he can Takes a huge burden off his shoulders. Reminding him that "it's not your fault".
    Quote Originally Posted by Jenaphor View Post
    Why does my ESTJ friend keep nagging me to socialise more? What if I kept nagging her to stop nagging her own child?
    Well... to a degree, ESTJs nag by nature because they care. If they don't give a shit, they won't nag you. But if they worry about things not going smoothly for you - if they're concerned about your well-being - etc etc etc - then they consider it their duty as a friend/family member to step in. Worst case scenario: something terrible happens, and if only you had stepped in, the terrible thing could have been avoided.

    But that's more Te dominance, than ESTJ-ness. ENTJs nag too, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by mrcockburn View Post
    Can you lend me some Si...
    Here. Use it well, young padawan.
    Quote Originally Posted by mcmartinez84 View Post
    The only time I kinda debate for the sake of it is to learn more about something. And even then, I don't think I'm debating. I ask questions to understand wtf is going on. Some people might think it's debate-ish. *shrug*
    That's actually what I do, too. Exactly what I do. I totally agree. I usually don't like "debating", unless I know for sure that it will come to a satisfying conclusion - because I hate those debates that end with some vague understanding of all the irrational emotions that form the basis of everyone's opinions of everything. I like the debates that end with a lovely enlightening moment, and make you feel like you appreciate the other person more Or that you've convinced them that you're right
    Oh, and I know none of that it related to NPs. D:
    It's still sympathetic, and that's what matters It's actually nice to know that it isn't always type-related, in a way. Though I'm still confused about how I manage to get into debates and then get lost in them... I thought conversations were things that are easy to follow when you're in them?
    Quote Originally Posted by Redbone View Post
    When any debate opens, this is where it will lead. I can completely identify with debating for the intellectual stimulation or to sharpen or focus my thoughts. That is the purpose of the debate--nothing more, nothing less. I don't want it to necessarily go anywhere. I love it but I have come to realize that other people don't enjoy this at all. It's either seen as confrontational or as you said, going nowhere.
    Or feeling like you're being used as a sounding board, without your permission. I dunno - I like conversations that focus my thoughts, as much as anyone. But for whatever reason, they make more sense to me when I'm talking to Js. I've had very intellectually stimulating and thought-sharpening conversations with NFJs, but that's mostly because it ends up being a pretty linear conversation. Or else, it's like a flowchart, and there can be multiple conversations going on at once, but they're still pretty linear and therefore they still make sense, even if there are so many. If that makes sense.

    Also, to be fair, I have had really, really excellent conversations with my INTP dad. Not DEBATES, but conversations, where we throw out ideas and neither of us presumes to have a position, or not. If I'm in a debate, I have a position. I may abandon it if I'm convinced of something else, but I always have a position. I don't consider it to be a debate if I'm position-less. Also, like mcmartinez said earlier, I would probably be asking questions, instead of making blanket statements (as my INFP friend was doing earlier), to make it clear that I'm not taking a side yet.
    Hmm...I didn't know that an INFP would do this...thought this was more of a XNTP trait.
    It was SO WEIRD! I'll give you a sample, when we were talking about an author:

    Me: He had interesting points, but he really annoyed me. He would make these huge blanket statements about huge groups of people. It was frustrating.
    Her: Yes, but consider his background; his family was killed by members of that group of people.
    Me: But that generalization! It's so frustrating! I HATE those blanket statements!
    Her: But think of his background!

    God DAMMIT. It kept going around and around in circles like that! Complete type-related miscommunication. She was acting as if I should consider it OKAY for people to be irrationally biased. As if the argument could be won by the sheer power of her Fi alone. I can't debate with someone who talks like that; we operate on completely different concepts of what's rational or irrational! I doubt that this is the fault of her type - I mean, we all know that rationality isn't type-related. But... it was SO ANNOYING

    (There was a lot more to it than that, but that's just an example)
    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"

    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
    1w2/7w6/3w4 so/sx (enneagram)
    lawful good (D&D) / ravenclaw + wampus (HP) / boros legion (M:TG)
    conscientious > sensitive > serious (oldham)
    want to ask me something? go for it!

  10. #1360

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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    That's actually what I do, too. Exactly what I do. I totally agree. I usually don't like "debating", unless I know for sure that it will come to a satisfying conclusion - because I hate those debates that end with some vague understanding of all the irrational emotions that form the basis of everyone's opinions of everything. I like the debates that end with a lovely enlightening moment, and make you feel like you appreciate the other person more Or that you've convinced them that you're right
    Omg! I like that our arrogance is in the same place. I mean, it's not really arrogance when we're right.

    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    It's still sympathetic, and that's what matters It's actually nice to know that it isn't always type-related, in a way. Though I'm still confused about how I manage to get into debates and then get lost in them... I thought conversations were things that are easy to follow when you're in them?
    lol, me too! It would happen with an INTJ every so often and he pissed me off one time. I brought up Nazis or Hitler and he immediately "discredited" me by citing Godwin's law... Once he did that and made fun of me (for making a valid point) I just gave up. I get that it's a funny internet thing, but I *did* take a whole 3 credit hour WW2 history class. I learned about them D:

    An ENTP friend would also make debates out of nothing. He loved doing that. I think he liked it even more after a couple of us told him that we hated those debates. :rolli:
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