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Thread: Ask an ESTJ!

  1. #1341
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Interesting. I wonder if that is, actually, type-related.

    No problem! It's a little bit of both, and they're mutually reinforcing. We have stricter definitions of what makes a "close friend" - i.e. what makes someone worth opening up to - because we don't want to take the risk of growing close to someone who will hurt us later.

    A quote from earlier that's relevant:
    Thanks again so much for the input! I do feel like I might be seeing her a little bit too much as an ESTJ rather than an individual at this moment so I'll keep what you said in mind. Really liked what you said about opening up - hopefully I can be that friend to her, all my other friends, and well, everyone and anyone who needs it

  2. #1342
    don't fence me in sui generis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redbone View Post
    And what would make you decide to cross that line? Is what you see in that person, the feedback you receive from them, or that they seem to know where you are coming from?
    For me, it's kind of a combination of all of the above, leading to this general sense/knowledge that I can trust them not to judge me. With some people it comes right away, with some people it takes a long time. I'm not denying that it's partially about what *I* need this person to be to me, either, but most of it's what I see in the other person.

    Your ESTJ sounds like he's in a rough spot. Desperate-like.
    Murphy Brown: What is it with us? Why can't we take the easy road once in awhile?
    Avery Brown: Because it's boring and dishonest and uncomfortable, like wearing a pair of shoes all day that pinch your feet.

    approx 55% ES, 90% TJ

  3. #1343
    Member Anna intuitive's Avatar
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    Further report back: I just spent another week at a workshop with my ESTJ colleague. This time we were at the same level as participants in the workshop, except that I had to spend some of the free time in supervision with her for my other work.

    Working really hard at anything I have to report on to her is paying off. She clearly respects that and we are then both at ease.

    I was ill for three days with an inner ear infection and I noticed that she was the most helpful of anybody, in the way that I like. Which is to say that she was practically helpful in many small ways and at the same time respected my way of dealing with my illness, once I had explained the rationale for that. She didn't try to tell me what to do or act anxious.

    I notice now that when I am with her and she does or says something I would have reacted to before, I just think "Oh yeah, I read about that (kind of behaviour pattern) on the "Ask an ESTJ!" thread. Then I stay calm.

    At the end of the week she said "It was good to be together". Knowing that ESTJs say what they mean, I take that as real.

    I feel our relationship has turned a corner, though there will still be more work to do at it on my side...for reasons which will be clear when I next post on the thread - am leaving for another workshop now.

  4. #1344
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I agree - no type has got a corner on considerate and thoughtful. In fact, I've found that ESTJs tend to be extremely considerate in many areas which don't come naturally to me. In my experience, they notice what the other person's practical needs are and work quickly to deal with them. They are a lot more adaptable than me in terms of trying to speak in another person's love language. I've found that they are pretty universally tremendous at noticing details about how others communicate and putting the person at ease through using those observations to inform their behaviour. I am easily embarrassed, especially when I am in unfamiliar territory, and I've found that ESTJs matter-of-fact manner, knowledgeability and interest in being of use has made them one of the more likely types I'd go to for an explanation or help with something.
    The bolded is something I hadn’t thought about before, but that is totally true now that you’ve mentioned it! Usually my issue is figuring out what’s needed (on a deeper level), but once I figure that out I have no problem doing what needs to be done. I have a very “What can I do?” approach to comforting people and dealing with their emotions etc.
    As far as introspective - yes I agree with you on that! ESTJs are extremely introspective. I think that where INFJs may make the distinction is what they are introspective about and also how much they verbalize it.
    Very true. A good example: my answer to your question, coming up -
    If I were to ask a lot of ESTJs how they felt about a certain event that had happened in their life and what they would have done same or differently though, I'm not sure what kind of response I'd be likely to get. You've said that this thread's questions have made you think about some things that you may not have been as likely to otherwise. Do you think this is the kind of stuff that that person may have been referring to? (I don't know, just am wondering what you think...)
    If other ESTJs are like me, then if something really big happens in their lives, they want to know what it means for them. If it just sits there, looming, like the elephant in the room, completely unresolved, it’ll drive them crazy! So you can guarantee that when you ask them about a particular event and how they feel about it, they have introspected that thing to DEATH. They have turned it around and around in their heads until they have sorted it out internally. And if they haven’t yet… you can bet that their answer to your question will be long and rambling, because they haven’t come up with a way to approach it yet, and they’re desperately trying to find a way to phrase it that won’t make things too awkward or too personal.
    Quote Originally Posted by Redbone View Post
    And what would make you decide to cross that line? Is what you see in that person, the feedback you receive from them, or that they seem to know where you are coming from?
    It’s pretty spontaneous, actually. I’ll act a particular way towards them, but you’ll see a difference in me if a particular type of situation arises. I’m guessing that you’d never know if I was close to you if a situation never came up where I would need to show my loyalty/affection/etc. But if a time comes when, say, a friend is really stressed out or upset, and that friend isn’t a previously-established “close” or “kind of close” friend, then I’ll have to make a decision: How do I react? That decision will probably be based around how much loyalty/protectiveness I feel towards them at that particular moment. So really, it’s only when the appropriate situation arises that I realize whether I want to be a true friend or not.

    Oh, I just realized that I was only answering based on ESTJs being good friends to people, and not ESTJs being the ones to open up… The answer to that is also: it’s spontaneous and situational. If I’m feeling emotional about something, I’ll have a gut feeling, as to whether I’m comfortable or not opening up in front of a particular person. It isn’t really rational; the deepest it gets is “I can’t open up to them! I barely know them!” without even having a good definition of “know”. And if I’m deciding to open up to someone for the first time, it isn’t reasonable like this: “I’ve been their friend for a certain number of months. They’ve proven themselves to me. Therefore, I will open up to them.” Although I’m guessing that a little of that happens subconsciously. But in the moment, it’s more like this: “Should I say it should I say it should I say it - ah fuck it I’m gonna say it - here we go - oh shit I hope this works!”
    One of my ESTJs blew up my phone this morning unloading on me. I was kind of shocked. We both talk to each other about our problems but we both tend to be matter-of-fact about it. Not this time. When we got on the subject of our current issues, he admitted that he gets scared, confused, and freaks out. He said no one may see it (well, he said it was important that no one sees this) but on the inside, he is coming apart. He spoke of his fatigue, his frustration, and even being lonely despite being surrounded by friends and family. I was really surprised that he was so emotional about it. Oddly enough, when we have talked before, he always ends the conversation on a "hell, I said too much" vibe. This time, he was more like, "I'm glad I talked to you. Thank you." I've known him for a very long time and he's never been like that. It makes me wonder what happened. I feel like an invisible line has been crossed.

    I look back over conversations over the last few times that we have talked and noticed a different tone to them. So, he's been heading in this direction for a little bit. I just didn't notice it.

    As always, thanks in advance.
    Aww, that’s so wonderful He must have really, really needed that. I relate a lot to the “hell, I’ve said too much” vibe, because that’s almost always how I feel after opening up to someone. But what happened with your ESTJ was that he opened up with a purpose – i.e. self-comfort – and he got exactly what he was hoping for! Congrats to him and to you – that is an incredible milestone. (I say “incredible” because there are VERY few people in my life who I can have conversations like that with. Although to be fair, NTPs are really good at getting to the heart of things; if I talk to my dad and I’m really upset or crying, he won’t be fazed at all by my outward display but will go directly to the problem solving, and that’s absolutely wonderful and makes me feel calm and in control

    Quote Originally Posted by Peel View Post
    Thanks again so much for the input! I do feel like I might be seeing her a little bit too much as an ESTJ rather than an individual at this moment so I'll keep what you said in mind. Really liked what you said about opening up - hopefully I can be that friend to her, all my other friends, and well, everyone and anyone who needs it
    That’s lovely! I hope so too. Good luck, young padawan!
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



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  5. #1345
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anna intuitive View Post
    Further report back: I just spent another week at a workshop with my ESTJ colleague. This time we were at the same level as participants in the workshop, except that I had to spend some of the free time in supervision with her for my other work.

    Working really hard at anything I have to report on to her is paying off. She clearly respects that and we are then both at ease.

    I was ill for three days with an inner ear infection and I noticed that she was the most helpful of anybody, in the way that I like. Which is to say that she was practically helpful in many small ways and at the same time respected my way of dealing with my illness, once I had explained the rationale for that. She didn't try to tell me what to do or act anxious.

    I notice now that when I am with her and she does or says something I would have reacted to before, I just think "Oh yeah, I read about that (kind of behaviour pattern) on the "Ask an ESTJ!" thread. Then I stay calm.

    At the end of the week she said "It was good to be together". Knowing that ESTJs say what they mean, I take that as real.

    I feel our relationship has turned a corner, though there will still be more work to do at it on my side...for reasons which will be clear when I next post on the thread - am leaving for another workshop now.


    HOORAY!!!!!

    Your posts are so wonderful! They are probably my favorite posts of the entire thread, to date! It's bringing everything I've spent the past two years doing into one practical application, with regular updates and positive results and OH MY GOD.

    I'm serious. I am SO glad this is working for you. Congratulations. And I am so glad that I've been helpful.

    Sigh
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
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    want to ask me something? go for it!

  6. #1346
    Senior Member mcmartinez84's Avatar
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    This thread is seriously making me miss my ESTJ friend
    I 65.63% E 34.38%
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  7. #1347
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    What about ESTJs and the counter-culture?

    The one I know (and I'm pretty sure he is one) was an anarchist/punk rocker while growing up, took a lot of drugs, lived as a squatter and indulged in a fair amount of wild young man behaviour (motorbikes and silly antics). Around age 30 he became and has remained a strict Christian, so he's been a pretty serious and sober type for the years ever since, except for allowing himself to cut loose occasionally on holiday or socially (and I think it really is in terms of "allowing himself.") He has a lot of responsibilities and takes them extremely seriously.

    (Mind you, he still has a motorbike and a mutual friend told me he drives like a bat out of hell. I've been in a car with him so I could kind of believe it. She'd been on motorbikes many times before but still told me he was so aggressive/reckless while driving that she was terrified... At the point when I was interested in him I was hoping I'd get him to take me out on it but that never did happen - he doesn't use it much anyway. But from her description , that's probably a relief, especially as I've never been on one...)

    I'm just curious because I'm pretty sure he is ESTJ but this is the background he came from. I wouldn't have anticipated that ESTJs would be that much inclined to go against the norms of society even when younger. However, maybe it's more in terms of being a team player/leader in a group? Anarchists and squatters have their own communities and norms too.

    I think I've also seen it said somewhere on this forum that young ESTJs or ESFJs might come across as more experimental and ESTP/ESFP-like when growing up and experimenting, also depending on what kind of social surroundings and group they have.

    I'd be interested to hear what you think about this...
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  8. #1348
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Why do ESTJs love me ? Especially much older woman who especially should now that I am a jerk ?
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  9. #1349
    Senior Member INTPness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    Why do ESTJs love me ? Especially much older woman who especially should now that I am a jerk ?
    Oooh, oooh, I know the answer to that question. It's cuz their tertiary Ne develops later in life and so it's refreshing for them - like a breath of fresh air when someone has lots of Ne. I see this with an ESTJ family member of mine. The older he's gotten, the funnier he thinks I am and the more he relates to my humor. It's like my Ne gives him "permission" to come outside and act like a big clown. He's actually gotten pretty good with his Ne as the years have gone on.
    NTJ's are the only types that have ever made me feel emo.
    ENP's are the only types that have ever made me feel like a sensor.


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  10. #1350
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcmartinez84 View Post
    This thread is seriously making me miss my ESTJ friend

    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    What about ESTJs and the counter-culture?
    The thing about the idea of "tradition" or "counter-culture" is that it's so incredibly subjective. ESTJs aren't traditional for the sake of tradition; the only way that they follow that stereotype is that they don't like to go against things that they are used to, with the very important qualification being that they believe that those traditions are right/just/fair/etc - and that they like them. ESTJs can be as rebellious as anyone, as long as they believe that the "norm" isn't worth joining. As counter-stereotypical as this may seem, ESTJs can be fiercely independent people, and if something "normal" ends up riling up their Fi, then they WILL rebel against it.

    So, I can imagine a hypothetical situation behind why your ESTJ became an anarchist biker: He sees people who are bikers/anarchists. He is curious and learns more about it. He compares that lifestyle to his current one and deems it "better" in a number of ways that he could probably list for you - and if anyone argues with him, he leaves each argument feeling progressively more secure in his future decision to live that way. Finally, if his friends/family oppose the decision, he tells them that he'll do it anyway, and lists for them all the reasons that he chose. (That is, if he respects his family. Otherwise, it'll be "Fuck you and your arbitrary rules! I'm leaving.") Not that this is what happened with him, but it would make sense to me.
    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    Why do ESTJs love me ? Especially much older woman who especially should now that I am a jerk ?
    Quote Originally Posted by INTPness View Post
    Oooh, oooh, I know the answer to that question. It's cuz their tertiary Ne develops later in life and so it's refreshing for them - like a breath of fresh air when someone has lots of Ne. I see this with an ESTJ family member of mine. The older he's gotten, the funnier he thinks I am and the more he relates to my humor. It's like my Ne gives him "permission" to come outside and act like a big clown. He's actually gotten pretty good with his Ne as the years have gone on.
    Totally. Although they obviously don't have to be old - you can tell that my Ne is pretty good already
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
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    want to ask me something? go for it!

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