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Thread: Ask an ESTJ!

  1. #1311
    Senior Member mochajava's Avatar
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    *mouth agape*

  2. #1312
    Senior Member mochajava's Avatar
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    *remembers her manners* - thanks for your help EJCC! This makes things make a lot more sense to me. Knowing how to evaluate now, I guess I have some fantastic xSTJs in my life. Still, it's like the premise of 5 love languages - you want to be loved/supported the way you want to be loved and supported, and sometimes that means learning how. I guess now I know what I need to do to make my xSTJ feel supported, and that means get to work. Care about the details. Do things and do them well. And be really, really thoroughly attentive to sick people.

    If I could choose my personality type, I might choose ESTJ - it looks the most convenient and marketable (as in, you'd be good at so many different types of jobs in different environments). But we don't choose our types, unfortunately.

    Just a follow-up question... if your friend comes to you and has been dealing with something that you simply CAN'T relate to (e.g., I'm back from war, I was raped as a child, there's a situation at work I can't resolve), then what to do? Do you still follow up with the most similar experience you've got in your accessible memory?

    And what does an ESTJ do when he or she is sad? That doesn't seem like there's a "tool" except maybe exercise?

    And one more thing - would the things you mention above feel comforting to you? If so, how comforting? Would it be the perfect, ideal thing to do?

  3. #1313
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mochajava View Post
    *mouth agape*

    Quote Originally Posted by mochajava View Post
    *remembers her manners* - thanks for your help EJCC! This makes things make a lot more sense to me. Knowing how to evaluate now, I guess I have some fantastic xSTJs in my life. Still, it's like the premise of 5 love languages - you want to be loved/supported the way you want to be loved and supported, and sometimes that means learning how. I guess now I know what I need to do to make my xSTJ feel supported, and that means get to work. Care about the details. Do things and do them well. And be really, really thoroughly attentive to sick people.
    Yes, exactly. The good thing about ESTJs, though, is that - assuming they're healthy - if you have a serious heart-to-heart with them about what you need from them in certain situations, they WILL care enough to do exactly what you told them to do. In other words, they're great at learning other love languages

    And ftr, there are a LOT of times when I like the INFJ love language better - but sometimes all I want is advice. Your example of taking care of sick people is perfect, though - it's funny that both of my parents had that parenting style, where if I said that I had a cold, they'd go "Did you take such-and-such pill? Have you been getting enough sleep? This is what you should do." Even my Fe mom would keep the "Poor boo-boo!" comments to a minimum because she's too much of a type-A enneagram 1 (or 2w1?) to be un-productive!

    If I could choose my personality type, I might choose ESTJ - it looks the most convenient and marketable (as in, you'd be good at so many different types of jobs in different environments). But we don't choose our types, unfortunately.
    See, I find that adaptability to be a curse. It doesn't help that I have so many interests, due to my Ne-generated enthusiasm for all things new and interesting - and due to the differences between what my parents made me good at (i.e. music, the arts, popular science) and what I'm naturally good at (memorizing facts, acing tests, doing ridiculously monotonous and boring shit for long periods of time). I often wish I had just one or two marketable skills so that I didn't have to make such tough career decisions.
    Just a follow-up question... if your friend comes to you and has been dealing with something that you simply CAN'T relate to (e.g., I'm back from war, I was raped as a child, there's a situation at work I can't resolve), then what to do? Do you still follow up with the most similar experience you've got in your accessible memory?
    No - I would consider that to be insulting. How could I possibly begin to compare what I've been through to what they've been through? That is, unless I were also raped as a child, or if I had even experienced some lesser form of physical or psychological abuse - in which case I would use the same process: "I went through this horrible thing too, and this particular psychologist/support group has been a miracle for me..."

    Generally, though, I'll just tell them that I'm there for them if they need me, and I'll try to be generally more cheery and fun than normal, and suggesting more fun things to do. And if that does nothing, then I'll ask them again, and if they say there's nothing I can do, then I'll leave them alone for the most part - or at least treat it like it was any other day (only without making as many jokes).

    And what does an ESTJ do when he or she is sad? That doesn't seem like there's a "tool" except maybe exercise?
    I go through the same process that I go through when I'm trying to comfort someone who's sad - i.e. I go "I'm sad, I hate feeling sad, this thing is causing me to feel sad, so I need to get rid of that thing!" A real-life example: "I'm feeling down. It's probably because I haven't seen my friends in a while. I'll text them and see if they want to do dinner tonight."

    If that doesn't work, and it's something that can't be easily resolved, then I desperately seek out advice from friends/family and/or people I know would be knowledgeable on similar issues, e.g. "Hey, this has happened to you before - how did you deal with it?" And if that doesn't work, then I have internal issues to deal with. And if I'm incapable of solving those issues... then it's time to see a psychologist!

    And one more thing - would the things you mention above feel comforting to you? If so, how comforting? Would it be the perfect, ideal thing to do?
    I think so! But only when whatever's bothering me is fixable. I am willing to concede that, in terms of comforting people who have to deal with uncertainty and sadness that they can only deal with internally (i.e. a very very serious issue, with Fi types anyways; the more serious the issue, the less likely I am to talk about it, because of the thought process I describe earlier in this post), then the xxFJ method is better. You guys are incredible with that.
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



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    want to ask me something? go for it!

  4. #1314
    Member Anna intuitive's Avatar
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    First of all: I also had the feeling that the content of this thread could be useful to people beyond the website, as it has been to me, but then I can't quite see what format it could fit into. Are there enough people who understand MBTI to be able to market a book called "Ask an ESTJ!". That's basically the question. The information is really valuable, and not to be found elsewhere, but are there enough people who understand MBTI to make it practical to publish? I'm not sure. And are there other formats, for example on the Internet, that I'm not aware of?

    Report back!: I tried out my new strategy with my ESTJ trainer. Each day I worked for over an hour after the workshop to fill out my report on what I understood about the workshop so as to be ready for our meeting time with her. Fortunately it was a live-in workshop so it was possible to do that. I enjoyed doing it actually because it was part of me improving myself as a trainer. I didn’t worry too much about reporting in a sensing and thinking way after the first day. I was just thorough and systematic in my approach, which I like to be anyway.

    It was well worth taking that time, which we are not required to do, in order to be calm in the meeting, instead of stressed out.

    Then I paid especial attention to a few things:

    Not talking outside the point (I failed a few times on this)

    I paid also attention to the word “neutral”. You once answered Fidelia, I think it was, that you as an ESTJ would prefer if someone was indifferent to you than if they hated you.

    This was a clue to me to act what I would call neutral towards my ESTJ especially around work matters. I saw that this suits her well. We are there to get the job done, right?

    I also saw that when we are off-duty she can be playful and she can talk about here and now stuff or little stories about something that actually happened in the past (but not too much). My ESTJ doesn’t like to talk, but I think that was because she was brought up on a farm where the family were the only workers, so from little she worked very hard in the fields and there was no time to play or talk. It may not go with the type. According to your posts a while back you like to talk, more especially in discussions with guys. (Sorry if I am getting you wrong here.) So a question for you, what topics do you like to talk about? How do the discussions develop?

    To get back to her, I can also be a bit playful around her and I can talk about here and now stuff at meals and so on, and not too much, in other words fit in with her style. I can do this because it is not difficult. It makes a harmonious atmosphere and that is important to me.

    Something else happened. In the workshop and in the meeting after the workshop I challenged her more and asked her more questions than usual, which I had not planned, but she did not take it badly. I would have expected her to react.

    There is something I am not getting here. Why do I have the impression that in the past when I asked questions I would get withering scorn from her? Is it the kind of question?

    How is this for you? If someone questions you about something at work, are there some questions that irritate you, and some that don’t? What would the difference be?

    And, over all, this training process went very much better than it has done in the past. I didn’t get stressed and my ESTJ colleague and I got on OK in this neutral kind of way.

  5. #1315
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    @ Anna:
    Questions to irritate an ESTJ:
    - irrelevant ones
    - vague ones
    - if the ESTJ gets the impression he has to be polite to you. An ESTJ can handle "Am I doing well?" or "How do you like my work?" very well if only he is sure you accept criticism. Otherwise, he wil sort of panic, like the stereotypical man panics if his wife asks whether she should wear the blue or the white shoes.

    @ EJCC: about Ti/Fe sympathy:
    Ti - Find out the cause to the person's discomfort.
    Fe - Make him feel better, make him know I'm on his side and I'm here to help
    Of course, if there's a problem to be solved, we'll solve the problem too! But to me the empathy work is "done" when we get to the "solve problem" phase.

    about the "ask an ESTJ" book - can be nice, but indeed, you'll need to rework it a bit. I think the biggest hurdle is somehow make a whole out of it. Explain the readers what's it all about. Ideally, I think, MBTI should even not be mentioned, especially not in the title! Because there's a lot in it that holds for other (nearby) types too. I'm more thinking along the lines of "why men don't listen and women can't read maps". The sort of title which makes a layman get an idea. There are much more MBTI laymen in the world than experts and it's them you want to reach. After all, lots of people deal with ESTJs in their lives and it'll be nice to be able to help them!
    Further, you'll need to cut and paste A LOT. Order among topics. Eliminate or merge discussions when they are too similar.
    I'd like to help with the first problem (I'm actually already brainstorming on it...) but I cringe if I think about the second one. That will take a lot of time and it'll be a really boring work... I guess I'll leave that to the SJs!

    About being good at lots of things: that's a gift, not a curse. Combine them all, NeTamske says! I'd love to quote a mentor again (I'm sure I've done that already here) - lots of people are good in one thing and choose that one thing to excel, but if you really want to be exceptional, combine two or more of your talents! Why do you think physics, schools etc play a prominent role in my stories?
    Got questions? Ask an ENTP!
    I'm female. I just can't draw women

  6. #1316
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    So... EJCC... what makes you positive you're an ESTJ? When/how did you come to this conclusion?

  7. #1317
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    Quote Originally Posted by DisneyGeek View Post
    So... EJCC... what makes you positive you're an ESTJ? When/how did you come to this conclusion?
    This could be a very good beginning of the book, together with "why are you glad you're an ESTJ?"
    Got questions? Ask an ENTP!
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  8. #1318
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    it looks like the whole world doesn't like entjs. i mean it is a bit ridiculous the general vibe people have toward a personality classification. i mean my god, we are all human.

  9. #1319
    don't fence me in sui generis's Avatar
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    I'm mostly settled into my new apartment in my new city and FIIIINALLY have internet service at said apartment, so I thought I'd jump in here for a minute. This will hopefully happen more often as I get into the swing of things with being back at school.

    A few thoughts on previous posts before I try to sleep...

    My favorite ways of showing love? Touch, a letter honestly expressing my positive feelings for the person, a thoughtful gift (it shows I've thought of the person!).

    Anger- I've talked a lot about this before, and I don't know if this is what you're looking for... it takes very little to annoy me but a WHOLE LOT to make me really angry. On the rare occasions I lash out at someone in anger, I realize what I've done pretty much right away and own up/apologize ASAP. Usually I don't say things I don't mean in anger; I say things that I've been trying NOT to say, mean/irritated things that I've been biting back.

    Questions that irritate this ESTJ: Um, mostly ones where it looks like you're sucking up or are fishing for compliments. I tend to ask *a lot* of questions in almost every circumstance (I'm the most irritating medical/dental patient ever! ) so I am tolerant of people asking a lot of questions.

    If faced with a friend who was dealing with a horrible experience that I have no concept of- I'd acknowledge to hir that I have no concept of it, yet try to recall the nearest thing in my experience and support hir in any way I can. Listening, refering to resources, etc.

    I do put people on my "to do list", but like EJCC said, *everything* is on the to-do list-- it's definitely not meant to be a personal affront!

    Dealing with sadness-- I've got to say, as I've said before, that I've become a lot more comfortable with my emotions than an ESTJ would be straight out of the box, due to circumstances I've been through in my life. Dealing with emotions (my own and others') was *definitely* a learned skill for me! When dealing with sadness I cry if I need to, write and process it out, be quiet for a while. Exercise is big for me, but it's better in dealing with anger or anxiety than it is for sadness.
    Murphy Brown: What is it with us? Why can't we take the easy road once in awhile?
    Avery Brown: Because it's boring and dishonest and uncomfortable, like wearing a pair of shoes all day that pinch your feet.

    approx 55% ES, 90% TJ

  10. #1320
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    ^ To be on an ESTJ's to-do list is a great compliment from the ESTJ in question!

    @estjperson: are you talking about ENTJs or ESTJs now? Because both types seem to take some crap from the popular opinion. The former as the Big Bad Boss, the latter as the Nitpicking Manager trying to destroy your dreams. And indeed, it's quite ridiculous to condemn a whole group. But people tend to do this unless they know particular examples. I tend to like the ESTJs because I know a few of them and I like these people. I don't know any real-life ENTJs so for me, they still are "those goal-oriented big idea people" - an abstract group.

    (Hm, would Nitpicking Manager not be a good title for EJCC's book?)
    Got questions? Ask an ENTP!
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