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Thread: Ask an ESTJ!

  1. #1281
    Writing... Tamske's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by penny89 View Post
    I wasn't talking about consistency, were you suggesting that my post is inconsistent? Anyway, my point with mentioning Te at the end was that I don't know what point I'm making until my post is actually done. I thought this was due to weak Te. Te seems to be useful for planning out posts beforehand. I notice this when writing essays too. Professors seem to want a very Te kind of thing where you lay out your main arguments in the intro, super structured essay. To do this, I have to write the intro after the rest is done, because I don't know what I think unless I've already written it out. I don't know what side I'm arguing for unless I've argued and finished. Hence the rambling. Te could probably condense this post itself down to two lines - efficiency, yes, I need that!
    Didn't mean to call you inconsistent. I just thought you were mixing up Te and Ti, but this post surely points out you weren't.

    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    But here's the thing - Good friends should help each other, right? So, she tells me that she has this grand plan, and even though I think her plan makes no sense, it's my duty to help her if she falls off the cookie wagon. Honestly, if she was taking it seriously, shouldn't she have thanked me for convincing her to not eat them? I'm not sure how much, in this situation, the ESTJ should be blamed, considering that we're operating under the assumption that the INFP (or whoever) will do what they say they will do, and will feel about it the way they appear to.
    Of course it isn't the ESTJ's "fault" or anything. I just tried to get into the mindset of your friend here, and it was quite easy even. My Fe says: you just don't comment on things other people do wrong, especially if those things don't affect you. You see this as helping, but they see it as nagging!
    I think Sui Generis has made a nice point about it - the ESTJ's side: "why tell me something as serious as such an intent if you don't want me to care about it? If it wasn't serious, why didn't you say so?"
    While our INFP (and this ENTP!) would only appreciate the ESTJ's help (nagging :-)) if they explicitly asked for it. The border between "I'm intending to do this and I want your support" and "I'm intending to do this but don't comment if I'm failing" seems to lie on different places. I tend to make this really clear. I'd say things like "I'd like to try out this, see if it works" or "Look, I want to reach this goal, want to help?"

    I began to tell the chocolate story to my husband and he cut me off at the point the friend took some chocolate.
    "And then EJCC commented on it and that was not a good idea!" he guessed!
    Last edited by Tamske; 03-07-2011 at 01:11 AM.
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  2. #1282
    lords of summer EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sui generis View Post
    So glad to be helpful! It's not something I'd even thought of until that conversation... except that the more I thought about it, I realized something. That asking-me-what-I-need approach is SO helpful to me that I find myself doing it to other people.. who find it less helpful. I remember talking to a friend who was upset, and I was like... so, how can I help? Do you need a hug or to talk or....? She looked at me like I'd grown a second head. I felt stupid for not being able to intuit what she needed automatically.
    I relate to this SO MUCH. I'll bet it relates less to MBTI and more to the 5 Love Languages -
    Acts of Service

    Can vacuuming the floors really be an expression of love? Absolutely! Anything you do to ease the burden of responsibilities weighing on an “Acts of Service” person will speak volumes. The words he or she most want to hear: “Let me do that for you.” Laziness, broken commitments, and making more work for them tell speakers of this language their feelings don’t matter.
    - since I know INTPs who ask questions like that as well.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tamske View Post
    Of course it isn't the ESTJ's "fault" or anything. I just tried to get into the mindset of your friend here, and it was quite easy even. My Fe says: you just don't comment on things other people do wrong, especially if those things don't affect you. You see this as helping, but they see it as nagging!
    I think Sui Generis has made a nice point about it - the ESTJ's side: "why tell me something as serious as such an intent if you don't want me to care about it? If it wasn't serious, why didn't you say so?"
    While our INFP (and this ENTP!) would only appreciate the ESTJ's help (nagging :-)) if they explicitly asked for it. The border between "I'm intending to do this and I want your support" and "I'm intending to do this but don't comment if I'm failing" seems to lie on different places. I tend to make this really clear. I'd say things like "I'd like to try out this, see if it works" or "Look, I want to reach this goal, want to help?"
    That makes sense, I suppose. So... how should I react, from now on, when I hear announcements like that? Because, like sui generis, I don't relate a lot to the other side of my story, I'm not sure what they're expecting from me, and from other people they talk to. Do I nod and smile and stay out of it?
    I began to tell the chocolate story to my husband and he cut me off at the point the friend took some chocolate.
    "And then EJCC commented on it and that was not a good idea!" he guessed!
    That cracks me up! I'm glad to know that he related to it that much.
    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"

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    want to ask me something? go for it!

  3. #1283
    Writing... Tamske's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sui generis View Post
    So glad to be helpful! It's not something I'd even thought of until that conversation... except that the more I thought about it, I realized something. That asking-me-what-I-need approach is SO helpful to me that I find myself doing it to other people.. who find it less helpful. I remember talking to a friend who was upset, and I was like... so, how can I help? Do you need a hug or to talk or....? She looked at me like I'd grown a second head. I felt stupid for not being able to intuit what she needed automatically.
    Me too, I can relate to this. Except that, when I'm really upset, I don't know what I need, because I don't understand my own emotions. I feel "bad" but until I know if "bad" is "worried" or "afraid" or "sad" or... Luckily this is quite rare and usually I start the conversation with "I need a hug" or the like. Very efficient, you'd probably like it
    [...]
    That makes sense, I suppose. So... how should I react, from now on, when I hear announcements like that? Because, like sui generis, I don't relate a lot to the other side of my story, I'm not sure what they're expecting from me, and from other people they talk to. Do I nod and smile and stay out of it?
    I'm afraid I can't offer a general rule to put into your Si I've been thinking about it, how I would react... but usually I just forget about other people's plans and the question doesn't arise. I can't remember I've ever been at the ESTJ's side of the story.
    Never comment? I don't think that's a perfect option either. If my hubby hasn't commented on my contradictory complaints about never finishing a story and just amusing myself, I'd , ever had that deadline system which greatly improved my writing (and resulted in two finished manuscripts already).
    I guess, whatever you do, you'll always get misunderstandings... Others (or even the same people in other situations) will be thankful for the same sort of communication.
    Got questions? Ask an ENTP!
    I'm female. I just can't draw women

  4. #1284
    beyondaurora
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    EJCC -- Awesome thread! Don't know if I'll ever get through it all, but it's been enlightening. : )

    I'm one month into a relationship with an ESTJ (confirmed), and I'm an INFP. I'm trying to understand him and be less sensitive to certain things he says and does, but, wow, it's difficult! What do you make of these comments: "You're hot. You'd be hotter if you had long hair. And I'd love you more. And that would make you happy." Part of me thinks, "what a jerk!", but then I think, "well, maybe he's just being reeeeally honest". As an ESTJ, do you think he gets a "free pass" on this one?

    Thanks. : )

  5. #1285
    lords of summer EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by beyondaurora View Post
    EJCC -- Awesome thread! Don't know if I'll ever get through it all, but it's been enlightening. : )
    I wouldn't blame you if you didn't get through it! May I be the first to say that this thread is fucking LONG!!! I would actually be surprised and VERY impressed if you managed to get through the whole thing. But by no means are you required to read it all.
    I'm one month into a relationship with an ESTJ (confirmed), and I'm an INFP. I'm trying to understand him and be less sensitive to certain things he says and does, but, wow, it's difficult! What do you make of these comments: "You're hot. You'd be hotter if you had long hair. And I'd love you more. And that would make you happy." Part of me thinks, "what a jerk!", but then I think, "well, maybe he's just being reeeeally honest". As an ESTJ, do you think he gets a "free pass" on this one?

    Thanks. : )
    Wow! That was a douchey comment, but props to him for being so honest! I don't know if you've seen all the bizarre gender dynamics on this forum recently, but after seeing all these TypeC men complaining about how they can't say what they think when they're around women, it's really refreshing to hear about guys who don't irrationally keep information from women, and therefore don't get resentful towards them.

    So, I guess... as an ESTJ, I appreciate that he talks like that. But as for whether you should give him a free pass - it's all you. You're the one who's going out with him, and therefore your feelings are most important, so you should decide. If that offended you and you're worried about him continuing to talk to you like that, I recommend talking to him about it, i.e. telling him that you were offended and you would rather that he not talk to you like that anymore.* Better to have that conversation sooner than later, in my opinion; It's important to know that, from my (vicarious) experience, the most common reason for ESTJ/INFx breakups is that the INFx starts to feel resentful towards their ESTJ partner for behaviors like that (or even less than that - things as small as perceived nagging, or withdrawing emotionally when under stress), when they had thought that it could maybe be "fixed", or simply endured, initially... leaving the ESTJ confused and bewildered; "I thought you were okay with me acting like that!"

    Hope that helps a little


    *One nice thing about ESTJs is that, for the most part, they can take the kinds of blunt comments that they give. They often appreciate it, when you're harshly honest with them. In my case, the way I see it is that even though harsh honesty can really hurt, it's necessary and it helps more than it hurts.
    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"

    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
    1w2/7w6/3w4 so/sx (enneagram)
    lawful good (D&D) / ravenclaw + wampus (HP) / boros legion (M:TG)
    conscientious > sensitive > serious (oldham)
    want to ask me something? go for it!

  6. #1286
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    Quote Originally Posted by beyondaurora View Post
    I'm one month into a relationship with an ESTJ (confirmed), and I'm an INFP. I'm trying to understand him and be less sensitive to certain things he says and does, but, wow, it's difficult! What do you make of these comments: "You're hot. You'd be hotter if you had long hair. And I'd love you more. And that would make you happy." Part of me thinks, "what a jerk!", but then I think, "well, maybe he's just being reeeeally honest". As an ESTJ, do you think he gets a "free pass" on this one?

    Thanks. : )
    You're only one month in and he's already starting in on you? Were you fighting when he said that? It does make a difference.

    P.S., prepare yourself, this is going to get exciting ...



    Though maybe he's not really "starting in", maybe he's just being brutally honest. I think it really depends on the context and tone.

  7. #1287
    don't fence me in sui generis's Avatar
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    Yeah, I'm torn. My first thought was "what a douche!"... but it's also possible he was just thinking out loud. Then again, "douche" and "ESTJ" aren't mutually exclusive. (Even though most of us are pretty awesome.)
    Murphy Brown: What is it with us? Why can't we take the easy road once in awhile?
    Avery Brown: Because it's boring and dishonest and uncomfortable, like wearing a pair of shoes all day that pinch your feet.

    approx 55% ES, 90% TJ

  8. #1288
    Senior Member mochajava's Avatar
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    Well, so it may or may not be douchey, but it is placing a value on how much he likes you you based on how you look... So it's like, "I would like you better if you were cuter by my definition" and it just depends on whether you're okay with that.

    I had a weird experience about it. Once, I cut off 12"of hair to donate to locks of love, and my husband's best friend said, "I would dump my girlfriend if she did that." Whoa, strong value judgment! She couldn't make up for her lack of [donated] hair in any other way?

  9. #1289
    beyondaurora
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    You're the one who's going out with him, and therefore your feelings are most important, so you should decide. If that offended you and you're worried about him continuing to talk to you like that, I recommend talking to him about it, i.e. telling him that you were offended and you would rather that he not talk to you like that anymore.
    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Hope that helps a little
    Helps a lot! Thank you. : ) Unfortunately, talking to him about it hasn't helped. We read the ESTJ/INFP section of "Just Your Type" in which the readers are presented ideas for how to relate to each other. We both agreed to implement the half-dozen suggestions, which included him listening and acknowledging the validity of my feelings even if he doesn't agree with or understand them and me trying to stay calm when upset and to not overreact. So much easier said than done! When I have expressed my dissatisfaction with these types of comments, he says, "Baby, you're overreacting! This is silly. You shouldn't feel like that. You're acting like a child." All of which ends up hurting my feelings even more!

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd Girl View Post
    You're only one month in and he's already starting in on you? Were you fighting when he said that? It does make a difference.
    LOL, Nerd Girl! We were in no way fighting. I was actually *gasp* baking a cake in lingerie (the latter part was at his request…oh my!) and had just sat down with him on the couch when he made that comment.

    Quote Originally Posted by sui generis View Post
    Yeah, I'm torn. My first thought was "what a douche!"... but it's also possible he was just thinking out loud. Then again, "douche" and "ESTJ" aren't mutually exclusive. (Even though most of us are pretty awesome.)
    Haha, sui generis! He makes a point of saying he’s awesome at least once a day. : ) Too funny. When I tell him something I love about him, he says, “Tell me something I don’t already know.” All playing around, of course, but it’s the opposite kind of playing that I do – I typically employ self-depreciating humor.

    Quote Originally Posted by mochajava View Post
    Well, so it may or may not be douchey, but it is placing a value on how much he likes you you based on how you look... So it's like, "I would like you better if you were cuter by my definition" and it just depends on whether you're okay with that.

    I had a weird experience about it. Once, I cut off 12"of hair to donate to locks of love, and my husband's best friend said, "I would dump my girlfriend if she did that." Whoa, strong value judgment! She couldn't make up for her lack of [donated] hair in any other way?
    Yeah, mochajava, I think that’s a really strong value judgment that doesn’t jive with my own values. Love, for me, has no correlation to hair length, but I *suppose* I could see another type having a set criteria for “love”, with physical attraction being a strong criterion and hair length being a factor in physical attraction. Still, I don’t want to be “loved” for my body parts or hair length.

    -----Ultimately, I’m an INFP who is very prone to being overly sensitive, and he’s an ESTJ who very naturally says what’s on his mind without regard to another’s feelings or interpretations. That’s just the reality of it.

    Last night when asked if he got along well with my friend whom he had just met, he said, while holding me in bed, “Her hair smelled nice. When I hugged her I could smell her hair, and it smelled really nice.” He thought that was a perfectly appropriate comment (and it may be!), but I wanted to kick him in the balls. He thought he was just stating a fact about something he observed. I’m embarrassed to say that my mind went “hair smells nice ---> pheromones ---> attraction ---> never said my hair smelled nice ---> not attracted to me” (Oy! I exhaust myself with this thinking, believe me!). BUT, I contained my emotions, and simply said to him that I thought that was an odd comment to make at that moment and that it didn’t make me feel good. He thought that me having any negative feeling toward that was completely irrational and childish. Again, perhaps it was irrational to not feel good about it, but who said feelings were rational! : ) It will be interesting to see how long we can tolerate *each other* and how much progress we can make toward meeting each other somewhere near halfway.

    Thanks all for the input! : )

  10. #1290
    Writing... Tamske's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by beyondaurora View Post

    -----Ultimately, I’m an INFP who is very prone to being overly sensitive, and he’s an ESTJ who very naturally says what’s on his mind without regard to another’s feelings or interpretations. That’s just the reality of it.
    Is it? I've read your other answers too. It seems to me, whenever this sort of thing comes up, he always pulls at the long end.
    You feel bad when he's complimenting your friend and not complimenting you. That's actually the sort of straightforward, logical emotion that even the most extreme T should understand. This is the sort of bad emotion we can live with: it has a cause and can be get rid of.
    I don't like the "I feel bad about... you know... well if you don't know why I'm mad at you, I'm not telling you" sort of emotional breakdown. It's not my fault I can't read or guess what's wrong. But you're not doing this!

    My hubby (ESTJ indeed) loves the way we deal with emotions. We give each other feedback of the same sort as you do. "You make me feel good now because..." "It irks me if you do this, because..." "Please just listen, I need to rant a bit about my work" "I'm sorry to be grumpy, you can't help"

    I've got this idea that you more or less believe him when he says those emotions are childish and irrational - which means you're at fault and should stop whining about that, while he can just go on being inconsiderate.
    But they aren't. They are subjective. And there's nothing wrong with being subjective. After all, it IS about you! It's you who has to put up with it. You aren't a puppet.
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