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Thread: Ask an ESTJ!

  1. #1251
    Writing... Array Tamske's Avatar
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    The "ENTJ vs ESTJ" thread in the Rationale makes me want to ask this.

    Do you often get the impression that you're singled out (on the forum and/or in real life) as the inferior type?
    Because I didn't have that impression, but then again I'm not an ESTJ (heh) so probably I don't really pay attention to it. You can use negative words to describe any type, can't you?
    Aren't the ENTJs evil bastards, the ENTPs irresponsible goofballs,...?
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  2. #1252
    came back haunted Array EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tamske View Post
    The "ENTJ vs ESTJ" thread in the Rationale makes me want to ask this.

    Do you often get the impression that you're singled out (on the forum and/or in real life) as the inferior type?
    In real life, not at all. In real life, people use the MBTI to help in dealing with people, and respond to any negative aspects of the type as "Oh, THAT'S why they do that; now I can change the way I approach them and avoid that issue." I think if I proposed the idea that any one type was superior to ANY person I know in real life who knows about the MBTI, they would think I was crazy. The whole idea of type superiority is probably just a creation of places like this - forums, places for scholarly discussion, whatever. Which is why, although there's no anti-ESTJ bias in real life at ALL, there is a TON of it on this forum.

    I'd like to think that my mere existence here has helped that a little, but it hasn't entirely gone away. Wherever there is sensor bias, there is anti-ESTJ bias - from Ns (mostly NTs) who think to themselves "What gives ESTJs the right to assert their opinions to me when they obviously aren't intelligent, creative or insightful enough for those opinions to be valid - or, at least, more valid/intelligent/etc than MY opinions, which are perfectly thought out?"
    Because I didn't have that impression, but then again I'm not an ESTJ (heh) so probably I don't really pay attention to it. You can use negative words to describe any type, can't you?
    Aren't the ENTJs evil bastards, the ENTPs irresponsible goofballs,...?
    Yeah, but the difference is that there are a TON of ENTPs and ENTJs on this forum, so if someone starts stereotyping and actually believing the stereotypes (as opposed to stereotyping and making fun of the stereotypes), a great big mob of ENTPs and ENTJs will show up and enlighten that person - or bully them a little bit. But either way, the stereotyper will leave the situation knowing that they can't make statements like that anymore. There's no mob of ESTJs here. There's me, and Max and sui generis whenever they feel like showing up, and a crew of NFs and NTs who like me and like their ESTJ family members/spouses. But that's nothing compared to the number of sensor haters here.
    "When the mob and the press and the whole world tell you to move, your job is to plant yourself like a tree beside the river of truth, and tell the whole world -- 'No, YOU move.'"
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  3. #1253
    Finis Array Redbone's Avatar
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    It's generally what I do - that is, either a positive spin, or a neutral/matter-of-fact tone, or a battle plan. And it's not really a coping mechanism in itself, for me, as much as it is a brand new outlook resulting from an internal crisis that I probably never shared with anyone - or a matter-of-fact recitation of words I've been using to comfort myself that haven't necessarily

    Here's an example: Last semester I wasn't in any extracurriculars at all, except for my work study. That really frustrated me, for a lot of reasons, and made me feel inadequate compared to friends of mine who were able to join quite a few extracurriculars AND maintain their work study job AND get good grades. It was especially frustrating because I had tried about three different student groups and hated all of them, therefore quitting. I felt horrible and embarrassed and very insecure about it, so I told myself "Firstly, you tried really hard to find a group, so it's not like you're being lazy. And secondly, you're in your first year at a brand new college five times more difficult than your previous one. You're allowed a semester to ease in to it." So after reasonably successfully reassuring myself with that, the next time anyone asked me what extracurriculars I was in, I would tell them "I'm not in any right now, besides my work study, but I figure that I can spend my first semester easing into life at this school, and next semester I'll start looking for groups again." And I'll say that so matter-of-factly that the person will have no idea how much soul-searching went into it (and they'll probably never know). They'll think it was just some logical statement I came up with off the top of my head.
    Thank you for sharing this. This is valuable insight. I have talked to them both about serious issues and sometimes I have received what I perceived as a "don't worry, be happy" kind of reply. I didn't know that it was a way of putting energy into whatever may be positive in the situation or encouraging someone else to do so.

    This probably also tells me that with one of them, this is what came out of 'being in his head'. That sucks.

    I can't help but be insensitive towards the non-ESTJ side of this conflict, but I just HATE that kind of thing. So many sexist commercials/movies/TV episodes/etc. show that kind of behavior and make it seem typical of women in general. But it ISN'T! It's typical of women who are, in my opinion, FAR too used to the idea that it's okay to not be totally honest with people - to lead them on, to manipulate them, and to think that's "normal". You get that as early as middle school, with girls asking other girls to ask other girls to tell their friends that they REALLY like that one cute guy, instead of just telling the guy up front. No offense meant - but I just can't tolerate that shit. I hate it. I don't understand it, I don't see why it's helpful or necessary. One of my biggest pet peeves is when you ask an angry girl or woman what's wrong, and she says "You know perfectly well what's wrong" and refuses to tell you. God DAMN it, how much more passive-aggressive could you get???
    I hate this kind of thing, too. I've gotten to the point where I call it out if I see it happening. Well, at least the emotional manipulation.

    It's not a good thing and I'll never understand it. How the hell are you supposed to know where you truly stand with someone? One of my favorite quotes is from an INTJ I know "I take my truth neat." If you can't be real, it might be better to be quiet. Gah--I better stop...my blood is beginning to boil. I need to move back into my cool INTP zone.

    In short, I'm on the side of your ESTJs, and I can't help but see it as entirely the issue of the women in their relationships.
    Let me tell you, this is making me VERY glad to be a straight girl. Guys are much less likely to do stuff like that. It gives me hope, that I'll have as honest and open a relationship as I would like to have, when I'm in a serious relationship. If that's the typical issue, with ESTJs, then maybe I can avoid that.
    I am as well...maybe even more so because I was just in (and still extricating myself from) this same situation. Just reverse the genders and that's me and the ex.

    Hope with caution. If you find yourself paired with an extroverted feeler, it's going to be some rough going. Guys are less likely to do it but they do exist (my ex is ESFJ) and well... It can work if you're dealing with someone mature (I'm already working under the assumption that you are) because it creates openings for communication despite personality traits, beliefs, and attitudes.

    Not only that, most, if not all, people have expectations. In all the relationships I have been in, I've only been with one person that wasn't thrown off by being what most people think of as "masculine" (emotions, how I deal with problems, how I think, etc.). People have constructs in their heads and when it doesn't match with reality, either they will adjust or they will cling to the construct and begin to find fault with reality. Whoever you end up with, I hope they see and value you for the gifts you bring to the relationship and are willing to accept you as is.

  4. #1254
    don't fence me in Array sui generis's Avatar
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    I've decided to make an appearance; I've been missing my TypeC friends too much.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tamske View Post
    Do you often get the impression that you're singled out (on the forum and/or in real life) as the inferior type?
    Because I didn't have that impression, but then again I'm not an ESTJ (heh)
    Not in real life- I think that my weirdness and the parts of me that are not as much Stricty ESTJ are more of a disadvantage in Real Life. We ESTJs function pretty well in the real (organized, punctual, dependable, rational, thought-based) world, and I feel at home in the world most of the time, unlike my INFP friend, who has said that she often feels like she doesn't belong.
    I do feel like there's a lot of ESTJ hate, as well as a lot of S-hate in general, on the forums, but there's not as much as it used to be, and it bothers me less than it used to. If people are going to be prejudiced against me based on a caricature of my personality and not get to know me as a person, that's their loss and their problem.


    You can use negative words to describe any type, can't you?
    Aren't the ENTJs evil bastards, the ENTPs irresponsible goofballs,...?
    For sure! ENTJs ARE evil bastards, FPs have their heads in the clouds and couldn't form a rational argument to save their lives and are probably crying right now, etc. It's all caricatures; real people are more complicated than that.
    Murphy Brown: What is it with us? Why can't we take the easy road once in awhile?
    Avery Brown: Because it's boring and dishonest and uncomfortable, like wearing a pair of shoes all day that pinch your feet.

    approx 55% ES, 90% TJ

  5. #1255
    i love Array skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Here's an example: Last semester I wasn't in any extracurriculars at all, except for my work study. That really frustrated me, for a lot of reasons, and made me feel inadequate compared to friends of mine who were able to join quite a few extracurriculars AND maintain their work study job AND get good grades. It was especially frustrating because I had tried about three different student groups and hated all of them, therefore quitting. I felt horrible and embarrassed and very insecure about it, so I told myself "Firstly, you tried really hard to find a group, so it's not like you're being lazy. And secondly, you're in your first year at a brand new college five times more difficult than your previous one. You're allowed a semester to ease in to it." So after reasonably successfully reassuring myself with that, the next time anyone asked me what extracurriculars I was in, I would tell them "I'm not in any right now, besides my work study, but I figure that I can spend my first semester easing into life at this school, and next semester I'll start looking for groups again." And I'll say that so matter-of-factly that the person will have no idea how much soul-searching went into it (and they'll probably never know). They'll think it was just some logical statement I came up with off the top of my head.
    i have had a very similar situation recently, and felt a very similar way. embarrassed and displeased - and came up with a similar solution of telling people i was just getting used to things and planned to pick up more activities later. it's comforting to hear of someone in a similar situation

    Quote Originally Posted by sui generis
    FPs have their heads in the clouds and couldn't form a rational argument to save their lives and are probably crying right now, etc.
    what? no i'm... not...

  6. #1256
    came back haunted Array EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redbone View Post
    Thank you for sharing this. This is valuable insight. I have talked to them both about serious issues and sometimes I have received what I perceived as a "don't worry, be happy" kind of reply. I didn't know that it was a way of putting energy into whatever may be positive in the situation or encouraging someone else to do so.
    Yes, definitely. It's just like The White House, actually - all of the most serious work happens away from the public eye, and everyone else has to rely on the press secretary for information. And while the press secretary's information may be accurate, it completely leaves out the deliberative process.
    How appropriate of me, comparing ESTJs to the government. Pardon me for enforcing stereotypes!
    This probably also tells me that with one of them, this is what came out of 'being in his head'. That sucks.
    Well, actually, the "being in his head" part was the part that sucked. In my case - and maybe in your ESTJ's case too - the cheer shown when telling people that is usually entirely genuine. Because the reassuring words they're saying were likely used before that to reassure themselves, too.
    I hate this kind of thing, too. I've gotten to the point where I call it out if I see it happening. Well, at least the emotional manipulation.
    I need to get better at dealing with that. The last time someone acted like that towards me, my pissed-off-o-meter went from zero to sixty in less than a second. I couldn't hold it in at all - I just went "God, don't talk like that to me. Just tell me what you really think. I can take it."

    People don't think of me as aggressive, but that's because I avoid any conflict that I deem to be 1. overly risky, and/or 2. unnecessary. (I'm 99% sure this comes from my enneagram - and maybe(?not sure about this self-typing) having self-pres as #1 on my instinctual stacking.) But when it's necessary, or when there's no risk, or if I'm mad enough that I can't hold it in anymore, THEN you'll see EJCC acting aggressive - as in the above example.
    It's not a good thing and I'll never understand it. How the hell are you supposed to know where you truly stand with someone? One of my favorite quotes is from an INTJ I know "I take my truth neat." If you can't be real, it might be better to be quiet. Gah--I better stop...my blood is beginning to boil. I need to move back into my cool INTP zone.

    I am as well...maybe even more so because I was just in (and still extricating myself from) this same situation. Just reverse the genders and that's me and the ex.

    Hope with caution. If you find yourself paired with an extroverted feeler, it's going to be some rough going. Guys are less likely to do it but they do exist (my ex is ESFJ) and well... It can work if you're dealing with someone mature (I'm already working under the assumption that you are) because it creates openings for communication despite personality traits, beliefs, and attitudes.

    Not only that, most, if not all, people have expectations. In all the relationships I have been in, I've only been with one person that wasn't thrown off by being what most people think of as "masculine" (emotions, how I deal with problems, how I think, etc.). People have constructs in their heads and when it doesn't match with reality, either they will adjust or they will cling to the construct and begin to find fault with reality. Whoever you end up with, I hope they see and value you for the gifts you bring to the relationship and are willing to accept you as is.
    I hope so too. And I know what you mean about Fe and maturity. The situation I mentioned earlier, with someone being really passive-aggressive, was with an immature INFJ guy. But one of my best friends is an ENFJ, and he's very mature and honest and smart, and uses his Fe more for the purposes of tact than for sending mixed messages. (Too bad he's gay. )
    Quote Originally Posted by sui generis View Post
    Not in real life- I think that my weirdness and the parts of me that are not as much Stricty ESTJ are more of a disadvantage in Real Life. We ESTJs function pretty well in the real (organized, punctual, dependable, rational, thought-based) world, and I feel at home in the world most of the time, unlike my INFP friend, who has said that she often feels like she doesn't belong.
    I do feel like there's a lot of ESTJ hate, as well as a lot of S-hate in general, on the forums, but there's not as much as it used to be, and it bothers me less than it used to. If people are going to be prejudiced against me based on a caricature of my personality and not get to know me as a person, that's their loss and their problem.
    Yes.
    For sure! ENTJs ARE evil bastards, FPs have their heads in the clouds and couldn't form a rational argument to save their lives and are probably crying right now, etc.
    Definitely. The ENTJs are evil bastards trying to take over the world, the INTJs are leading the ENTJ's secret police and torturing people for information in some unknown, protected location... and while the xNFPs are crying about it, the INFJs have gathered together, tied themselves to a tree, and started singing "Give Peace A Chance".
    The xSTJs witness these crazy antics, and they sigh, shake their heads and get back to editing Excel sheets in their corporate cubicle jobs.
    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    i have had a very similar situation recently, and felt a very similar way. embarrassed and displeased - and came up with a similar solution of telling people i was just getting used to things and planned to pick up more activities later. it's comforting to hear of someone in a similar situation
    Aww. I empathize. Has it worked out okay? It's worked out for me, so far, this semester. I've found two or three clubs to try out - although I really wish I had an opportunity to play percussion again. I'll keep looking, for that one.
    "When the mob and the press and the whole world tell you to move, your job is to plant yourself like a tree beside the river of truth, and tell the whole world -- 'No, YOU move.'"
    - Captain America

    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
    1w2/7w6/3w4 so/sx (enneagram)
    lawful good (D&D) / ravenclaw + wampus (HP) / boros legion (M:TG)
    conscientious > sensitive > serious (oldham)
    want to ask me something? go for it!

  7. #1257
    Iron Maiden Array fidelia's Avatar
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    Hey EJCC! I just was reading your comments on how you would make someone feel better - put a positive spin on things, come up with a battle plan, etc. There is a thread in the NF section (Silkroad started it, talking about being allowed to feel negative emotions). I think your perspective would be useful over there. I've explained how Fi-Te works in interacting with distressed Fe-Ti from my perspective, but I think it would be useful to have it stated in your terms as well and I remember this coming up earlier in this thread too. I found it quite helpful at the time.

    Similarly, I'm wondering when ESTJs are feeling badly about something, would it be easily recognizable to someone looking on, or is it self-contained enough that others wouldn't know unless you said something? (Some Fi-Te users seem particularly good at this. I envy that superpower sometimes). Would you prefer them to try to put it in a things will be just fine perspective, or offer a solution or would it be best just to make you a nice dinner and act like all is well as a vote of confidence. I know this sounds terribly clumsy, but it takes me several times revisiting it to assimilate the information into a way that makes sense to me, as this is a very foreign way of doing things for me!

  8. #1258
    came back haunted Array EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Hey EJCC! I just was reading your comments on how you would make someone feel better - put a positive spin on things, come up with a battle plan, etc. There is a thread in the NF section (Silkroad started it, talking about being allowed to feel negative emotions). I think your perspective would be useful over there. I've explained how Fi-Te works in interacting with distressed Fe-Ti from my perspective, but I think it would be useful to have it stated in your terms as well and I remember this coming up earlier in this thread too. I found it quite helpful at the time.
    Ok I went to the thread, and posted probably the biggest post I've ever written in my life Hope it helps!
    Similarly, I'm wondering when ESTJs are feeling badly about something, would it be easily recognizable to someone looking on, or is it self-contained enough that others wouldn't know unless you said something? (Some Fi-Te users seem particularly good at this. I envy that superpower sometimes). Would you prefer them to try to put it in a things will be just fine perspective, or offer a solution or would it be best just to make you a nice dinner and act like all is well as a vote of confidence. I know this sounds terribly clumsy, but it takes me several times revisiting it to assimilate the information into a way that makes sense to me, as this is a very foreign way of doing things for me!
    ... what do you mean by "someone looking on"? Do you mean, noticing that someone notices that they feel bad? If that's what you meant - I would probably be too oblivious to notice unless the person went up to me and said something. When I'm feeling bad, I really am very self-contained. Very focused on just getting things over with - getting from point A to point B, minimizing the physical/emotional discomfort in a very gut-based and self-involved way. Introspective to the point of not noticing much in the outside world.
    "When the mob and the press and the whole world tell you to move, your job is to plant yourself like a tree beside the river of truth, and tell the whole world -- 'No, YOU move.'"
    - Captain America

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    want to ask me something? go for it!

  9. #1259
    don't fence me in Array sui generis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    I would probably be too oblivious to notice unless the person went up to me and said something. When I'm feeling bad, I really am very self-contained. Very focused on just getting things over with - getting from point A to point B, minimizing the physical/emotional discomfort in a very gut-based and self-involved way. Introspective to the point of not noticing much in the outside world.

    For me it depends on whether it's a sad or angry sort of feeling bad. If I'm sad, I get into that introspective, oblivious place. If I'm angry, I'm more outwardly-focused and you won't be able to get me to shut up about it. In either case, I'm torn between wanting to talk about it and GET THE BAD FEELING OUT OF ME and fear of being judged by other people, if they're not known safe people to talk to about feelings.

    As for what would make me feel better? It really depends on the situation and the person. I would loooooove it if you presented those options to me at the time, point-blank, and let me decide, actually.
    Murphy Brown: What is it with us? Why can't we take the easy road once in awhile?
    Avery Brown: Because it's boring and dishonest and uncomfortable, like wearing a pair of shoes all day that pinch your feet.

    approx 55% ES, 90% TJ

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    came back haunted Array EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sui generis View Post
    For me it depends on whether it's a sad or angry sort of feeling bad. If I'm sad, I get into that introspective, oblivious place. If I'm angry, I'm more outwardly-focused and you won't be able to get me to shut up about it. In either case, I'm torn between wanting to talk about it and GET THE BAD FEELING OUT OF ME and fear of being judged by other people, if they're not known safe people to talk to about feelings.

    As for what would make me feel better? It really depends on the situation and the person. I would loooooove it if you presented those options to me at the time, point-blank, and let me decide, actually.
    Oh wow, I didn't even consider thinking of feeling angry as feeling bad. For whatever reason, I find anger to be a lot easier to deal with - mostly because I don't think of anger as difficult or uncomfortable to show to people. It's a lot more acceptable and less awkward. Also, cathartically venting your anger IS dealing with the problem, whereas (in my case) venting sad feelings doesn't help - it just makes them worse.

    I agree with you about worrying about being judged, though. And that's not just in situations where I feel bad. Oh my god, if I knew that people would always take things the way I meant them...! You could NEVER shut me up!
    "When the mob and the press and the whole world tell you to move, your job is to plant yourself like a tree beside the river of truth, and tell the whole world -- 'No, YOU move.'"
    - Captain America

    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
    1w2/7w6/3w4 so/sx (enneagram)
    lawful good (D&D) / ravenclaw + wampus (HP) / boros legion (M:TG)
    conscientious > sensitive > serious (oldham)
    want to ask me something? go for it!

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