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Thread: Ask an ESTJ!

  1. #1181
    Finis Array Redbone's Avatar
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    Okay, one more then.

    EJCC, your dad is INTP, right? What do you like about your dad? What are some things you don't really see eye to eye on?

    I think my youngest is ESTJ or ENTJ. It's thrown me for a loop...he's only 3 and yet he is all about getting stuff done. He will leap in, take tasks on, do chores, and has not problem herding his older siblings when it's time to do something or telling them (or other people) what do. He is sweet, too, but it comes across as, "It's time for my hug, kissy, snuggle, etc., and you just better give it to me."

    Earlier today, he saw a basket of clothes and decided to pick it up saying, "I'm going to go wash these." Want to make him happy? Give him work to do.

    I've never seen anything like it.

    P.S. I just watched your video so I could have a voice to hang these answers on!

  2. #1182
    came back haunted Array EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redbone View Post
    Okay, one more then.

    EJCC, your dad is INTP, right? What do you like about your dad? What are some things you don't really see eye to eye on?
    Two of the main things that I really like about my dad:
    1. His sense of humor. Well, both of his senses of humor - the goofy kind, and the dark/sarcastic kind. The goofy kind will often involve him saying a ridiculously rude phrase, and then when someone calls him on it, pretending to be all innocent and going "What?? What did I do?????". Whereas the dark kind would involve him laughing at a stand-up comedian joking about, e.g., necrophilia. My dad became a whole new level of fun when I got to high school. The dark kind can also involve flinging mock insults - or just busting up laughing at someone being insulted.
    2. His seemingly endless random knowledge. I love learning things from him, and the fact that we like pretty much exactly the same things makes it really easy to start a conversation that I know will end with me knowing a lot more on the topic than I did previously. (The only down side to this is that he sometimes rambles in a monotone, and I would feel bad cutting him off - even though if I did, he would probably just laugh about it and turn it into a mock argument.)

    Two of the main things I dislike about him:
    1. Instead of being involved in a brainstorming process from start to finish, he has a tendency to pop in at the very end, make a declaration that totally contradicts everything else that has been said, and then expect everyone else to accommodate him. If I'm not there, it'll usually end with my mom (an INFJ) deferring to him in order to avoid a conflict, but if I'm there, I'll take my mom's side, and the two of us will have to go through the annoying and effortful process of explaining everything to him, which can sometimes end in a conflict... which leads to the next dislike:
    2. He makes zero sense when he's mad. I think it's because his angry spells are related to a buildup of things, but it's always bewildering when he's mad because he'll be hugely overreacting to a tiny thing. When I was a kid, it would always scare me when he was mad, because I felt like I couldn't say anything to him, because I couldn't predict what would make him mad, because it made so little sense. It didn't occur to me until maybe late high school that maybe he was mad about something besides what he was reacting to. (This is what happens when you take things at face value... )
    I think my youngest is ESTJ or ENTJ. It's thrown me for a loop...he's only 3 and yet he is all about getting stuff done. He will leap in, take tasks on, do chores, and has not problem herding his older siblings when it's time to do something or telling them (or other people) what do. He is sweet, too, but it comes across as, "It's time for my hug, kissy, snuggle, etc., and you just better give it to me."

    Earlier today, he saw a basket of clothes and decided to pick it up saying, "I'm going to go wash these." Want to make him happy? Give him work to do.

    I've never seen anything like it.
    That's awesome! Here's hoping that the desire to get stuff done continues - and also that it connects with a need to be helpful. ESTJ kids with that mindset are excellent for parents. From what my parents have told me, I was incredibly easy to deal with as a kid. The concept of rebelling without a cause has never made sense to me, and I've always liked my parents, so I kind of skipped the annoying rebellious teenager phase. That may be a good sign, for your ESTJ-to-be!

    P.S. I just watched your video so I could have a voice to hang these answers on!
    Wow. I feel famous!! *insert happy dance here*
    I hope those videos have been helpful. I really enjoy making them - probably for the same reason why I like posting on this thread - and I hope people don't take them as attention-whoring. (On a related note... feel free to let me know if there's a topic that would be better answered on video! Gives me an excuse to make another one )
    Quote Originally Posted by Nørrsken impersonating EJCC
    It's strange. I keep banning morons, but they keep signing up? What is this?
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  3. #1183
    Writing... Array Tamske's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Almost entirely true. The main difference is that I don't generally worry about people taking my statements as faked. What I do worry about is whether emotionally true statements such as "I miss talking to you" will get taken seriously enough that the emotion behind it becomes the forefront of the conversation topic and/or mood. That's what my poorly developed Fe gets paranoid about...
    This has been turning over in my mind recently, too. If you say "I don't really care about you" you'll be seen as very mean, even if it's true. Lots of people go through those polite-talk sessions without any meaning. But then the question is... if you really missed someone, if you really love someone, how do you say it? Because "I missed you" doesn't seem to get the meaning through... Even "I really missed you" can be part of a polite-talk session. But what do you do?
    If "I miss you" is a stock phrase, what do you need to say if you really missed the other person? Or do we all have to rely on our intuition (not in the MBTI sense) then? Use of voice? Body language? Fe?

    I'm going to log out and clean the kitchen to try and show my ESTJ that I love him beyond the "I love you" phrase! See you

    Edit: I had to tell my reasoning before he realized it was not only an act of practicality but also of love
    Last edited by Tamske; 11-28-2010 at 02:11 AM.
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  4. #1184
    Finis Array Redbone's Avatar
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    He makes zero sense when he's mad. I think it's because his angry spells are related to a buildup of things, but it's always bewildering when he's mad because he'll be hugely overreacting to a tiny thing. When I was a kid, it would always scare me when he was mad, because I felt like I couldn't say anything to him, because I couldn't predict what would make him mad, because it made so little sense. It didn't occur to me until maybe late high school that maybe he was mad about something besides what he was reacting to. (This is what happens when you take things at face value... )
    Oooh. I have been guilty of this. It's usually because I'm trying really hard to shove my feelings out of the way and they build up on the side of the roadway so to speak. One more thing happens and I'll snap. I'm also guilty of losing my temper when something happens that could have been easily prevented with a little forethought or planning. That's a real bad one there. If I do, I will apologize because I don't believe in burdening anyone (especially the kids) with my anger or upset. I also feel terribly embarrassed over any kind of emotional outburst. The kind of embarrassment where you wish the earth would swallow you up.

    That's awesome! Here's hoping that the desire to get stuff done continues - and also that it connects with a need to be helpful. ESTJ kids with that mindset are excellent for parents. From what my parents have told me, I was incredibly easy to deal with as a kid. The concept of rebelling without a cause has never made sense to me, and I've always liked my parents, so I kind of skipped the annoying rebellious teenager phase. That may be a good sign, for your ESTJ-to-be!
    Were you more obedient than bossy? That has me wondering now. He's definitely EXTJ. He will tell everyone what to do and how to do it. Unfortunately, that includes me, so I have be pretty firm with him (He wanted to argue about whether the butter should be out on the counter or not!! Nuts!!) Want to get him angry? Tell him "no" or don't do it the way he says it out to be done. Or don't do something NOW. He doesn't wait to be told anything, he just does it. Because I've seen my ENTJ sister and my other ESTJ person at work, I'm used to this...somewhat. It's going to make things interesting, that's for sure. I appreciate your insight.

    Wow. I feel famous!! *insert happy dance here*
    I hope those videos have been helpful. I really enjoy making them - probably for the same reason why I like posting on this thread - and I hope people don't take them as attention-whoring. (On a related note... feel free to let me know if there's a topic that would be better answered on video! Gives me an excuse to make another one )
    They are. I love this kind of learning because I think it can be helpful in understanding others and working with them. It also helps break down stereotypes because I've read descriptions of ESTJ (or SJs) and have gone, "Ugh!" And yet, I've learned a great deal in this thread and on this forum in general. I have come to respect ESTJ and how their thought processes work. It helped me find the person under the type.

  5. #1185
    Iron Maiden Array fidelia's Avatar
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    Hey EJCC! There was just a very illuminating discussion in the last few pages of the Do You Feel Safe Discussing Fi thread and in the ENFPs being controlling threads that is helping me to see the differences (and similarities) in the way the Fi/Te users vs Fe/Ti users orient themselves to the world and how one's most polite and natural communication style feels attacking to the other and vice-versa. This explains many of the frustrations the ESTJ and I had in communicating where it always felt like we were at an impasse. I think he had some of his own issues added on top, but I can see where some of this was at play too (at least in my way of perceiving his Te communication).

    Also, you know how you and I were talking about how INFJs seem malleable on the outside, but are rather immoveable in their ideas, while ESTJs appear immoveable and certain, but are much more flexy inside than one would think? I think this theorizing gives a key to why. INFJs are flexy on the emotions front and tend to believe someone's assessment of whether they are being reasonable or not because they do not see emotions as an integral part of who they are. They are sometimes useful and sometimes not, but are only a tool. Ti users tend to feel their ideas are an outgrowth of themselves and so want them to be properly understood and checked into before they are dismissed. They also tend to be more rigorous about accepting a source, but once they have, they are more unequivocal about really accepting their point of view as consistently valid and accurate. Te users see ideas as more flexible and negotiatable to find what is going to work best in that situation, but they are more rigorous about checking out all the data, regardless of where it comes from. They are more accepting of any idea that is good, even if they don't necessarily respect the person offering it. The ideas are not a reflection of them personally in the same way, and so it doesn't affect them nearly as much if they are criticized or debated compared with stating that an emotion or reaction is valid or invalid or discounting someone's right to weigh in.

    If you have time sometime to read them (maybe about 6 pages total), I would be very interested to see the ESTJ reaction, seeing as your functions are in a very different order than either NFP type or an NTJ's. Umlauu's posts especially are useful to zero in on. I'm wondering if you identify or can see any of these dynamics between you and your Fe/Ti parents (with those functions in different order) or if it is only applicable in the NFP realm.

  6. #1186
    Wurstverkäufer Array entropie's Avatar
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    Do you think INFJs and ESTJs think of themselves they are somehow important ?
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  7. #1187
    Carerra Lu Array IZthe411's Avatar
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    EJCC,

    What has been your experience with ISTJ dudes? You ever date one?

    Talk to me.

  8. #1188
    came back haunted Array EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tamske View Post
    This has been turning over in my mind recently, too. If you say "I don't really care about you" you'll be seen as very mean, even if it's true. Lots of people go through those polite-talk sessions without any meaning. But then the question is... if you really missed someone, if you really love someone, how do you say it? Because "I missed you" doesn't seem to get the meaning through... Even "I really missed you" can be part of a polite-talk session. But what do you do?
    Generally, I won't say "I missed you" unless I actually did... and if I didn't, I won't say anything That's what I usually do instead of lying - not saying anything at all. But I dunno if other people say "I really missed you" as a stock phrase. I bet they do. I have a very similar stock phrase - "Good to see you" - which I suppose I usually mean, because I like seeing people I know in general, but I usually don't think very hard about it before I say it.
    If "I miss you" is a stock phrase, what do you need to say if you really missed the other person? Or do we all have to rely on our intuition (not in the MBTI sense) then? Use of voice? Body language? Fe?
    I sometimes feel the same way that you do, i.e. that when I say something like "I missed you" and I really mean it, it doesn't mean as much as I want it to mean, because so many people seem to say it casually. My first instinct is to say that you can tell stock phrases from truthful ones when ESTJs say them more seriously and less conversationally - because when we say that kind of thing and we mean it, we REALLY mean it. Serious business!
    I'm going to log out and clean the kitchen to try and show my ESTJ that I love him beyond the "I love you" phrase! See you

    Edit: I had to tell my reasoning before he realized it was not only an act of practicality but also of love
    You guys are so cute
    Quote Originally Posted by Redbone View Post
    Oooh. I have been guilty of this. It's usually because I'm trying really hard to shove my feelings out of the way and they build up on the side of the roadway so to speak. One more thing happens and I'll snap. I'm also guilty of losing my temper when something happens that could have been easily prevented with a little forethought or planning. That's a real bad one there. If I do, I will apologize because I don't believe in burdening anyone (especially the kids) with my anger or upset. I also feel terribly embarrassed over any kind of emotional outburst. The kind of embarrassment where you wish the earth would swallow you up.
    That's really sad... and also really interesting to know - about the embarrassment, and not wanting to burden people. I wonder if my dad feels that level of embarrassment too. It's so hard to tell, because, like you, he never wants to talk about that sort of thing with people. I had no idea that it had to do with not wanting to burden them. I'm only really motivated by that (i.e. "They've got enough to deal with as is without my ramblings added in") about half the time; the rest of the time, it's more along the lines of "That would be TMI, and it would make the conversation really, really awkward, so I won't say it."

    Also, to clarify: I also am prone to having outbursts after a long buildup of things, but the key difference, for me, and the reason why I distinguish my dad's outbursts from mine, is that sometimes it seems like he thinks he's being perfectly rational. Maybe it's that he's so embarrassed that he doesn't want to talk about the cause of the outburst after it's happened, so it feels like, since he usually apologizes in the briefest and most discreet way possible, he doesn't take the outburst seriously. To contrast, I usually explain in brief why I had an outburst after it happens, even if it's just to say "I'm sorry about that; I've had a terrible week and I just got a C on a midterm" or something along those lines. My dad never explains anything. As a result, I always thought of his temper as completely random, which made it even more scary.

    Were you more obedient than bossy? That has me wondering now. He's definitely EXTJ. He will tell everyone what to do and how to do it. Unfortunately, that includes me, so I have be pretty firm with him (He wanted to argue about whether the butter should be out on the counter or not!! Nuts!!) Want to get him angry? Tell him "no" or don't do it the way he says it out to be done. Or don't do something NOW. He doesn't wait to be told anything, he just does it. Because I've seen my ENTJ sister and my other ESTJ person at work, I'm used to this...somewhat. It's going to make things interesting, that's for sure. I appreciate your insight.
    Interesting. Sounds more ENTJ to me, because there's no respect for authority in that behavior. When I was a kid, even though I was really independent, I was easygoing enough that I would defer to authority (i.e. parents, adults, etc) unless I strongly disagreed with them, and even then, I'd tell them about my disagreement, and if they convinced me, or if they just told me to go along with it, I would grudgingly do what they said. So I guess I was more obedient than bossy... but I was also pretty argumentative and opinionated. That's still true of me, actually...

    There was a thread in the Enneagram section about how Ones were usually passive kids with a bossy parent, and I think that was kind of true for me. My mom is probably the most type-A person I know. She has a tendency to tell people exactly what to do, because she doesn't trust them to remember on their own. She definitely did that to me as a kid. Dunno if that's relevant to what you were saying, but nonetheless...

    They are. I love this kind of learning because I think it can be helpful in understanding others and working with them. It also helps break down stereotypes because I've read descriptions of ESTJ (or SJs) and have gone, "Ugh!" And yet, I've learned a great deal in this thread and on this forum in general. I have come to respect ESTJ and how their thought processes work. It helped me find the person under the type.
    Definitely! That's actually been happening with me, recently, because I think one of my newer friends (or rather, friendly acquaintances) is a female ESxJ type 3, and she's really helping me see the differences two ESTJ girls can have. She is so incredibly DRIVEN. I don't understand it. She has this specific career goal for decades from now, and works herself to death every day to try and get there. She stresses herself out constantly, and pulls all-nighters all over the place. I really don't understand it. :confused: I could never live like that.
    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    If you have time sometime to read them (maybe about 6 pages total), I would be very interested to see the ESTJ reaction, seeing as your functions are in a very different order than either NFP type or an NTJ's. Umlauu's posts especially are useful to zero in on. I'm wondering if you identify or can see any of these dynamics between you and your Fe/Ti parents (with those functions in different order) or if it is only applicable in the NFP realm.
    Interesting. I will check that out as soon as I'm done posting this!
    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    Do you think INFJs and ESTJs think of themselves they are somehow important ?
    I don't think ESTJs do, necessarily. I think ESTJs think of themselves as having been put on this earth to get stuff done, so they do it, but they don't actively think of themselves as special. I mean, I would like to do something important with my life, but I don't presume to think that I'm the only one who could possibly accomplish whatever that thing is. INFJs, on the other hand... I dunno about others, but the ones that I know tend to think of themselves as Atlas, holding up the world. They are responsible for everything important that there is. Without them, all would be lost!!!!! I often tease my mom for having this attitude, actually.
    Quote Originally Posted by IZthe411 View Post
    EJCC,

    What has been your experience with ISTJ dudes? You ever date one?

    Talk to me.
    I have had very little experience with ISTJ guys. However, I had an excellent experience flirting with one on this very site! <3 (And no, I will not say which one.)

    Why do you ask? You have someone in mind?
    Quote Originally Posted by Nørrsken impersonating EJCC
    It's strange. I keep banning morons, but they keep signing up? What is this?
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  9. #1189
    Senior Member Array ChildoftheProphets's Avatar
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    It's been a LONG time since I've been on this website, but a question struck me today that I know can be easily answered here....

    For all you SJs--what is your rationale for maintaining loyalty to family and various institutions, despite their imperfections? Also, how do you define your loyalty?
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  10. #1190
    came back haunted Array EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChildoftheProphets View Post
    It's been a LONG time since I've been on this website, but a question struck me today that I know can be easily answered here....

    For all you SJs--what is your rationale for maintaining loyalty to family and various institutions, despite their imperfections? Also, how do you define your loyalty?
    Welcome back!

    I wouldn't classify loyalty to institutions and to family in the same box at all. I would classify my loyalty to institutions as part of an overall instinct towards functioning within existing systems instead of breaking out of them and making a new system. I wouldn't have a problem rebelling against an institution, if I knew for a fact that what the institution was doing was 1. actually a serious problem, and 2. actually fixable. So I guess that loyalty is from generally thinking "I might as well follow these rules, until/unless someone proposes something better. Then I'll follow THOSE rules."

    My loyalty to my family, on the other hand, comes from either love, a sense of duty, or both, depending on how close this family is. With my parents, I'm loyal to them because that's how good kids act, but also because I care about them. Whereas, the more extended the family members are, the more likely I am to be motivated by thoughts like "If I'm not loyal to them, they'll hate me, and that would ruin the family dynamic, and I'll have to deal with these family dynamics for the rest of my life, so I might as well."

    Now, how I'd define my loyalty would be that I'd be there for them if they needed it. The strength of this loyalty depends on my connection to the family member in question. There are family members whom I would be much less likely to help if they needed it, because I'd be like "I hardly know you! I see you once a year!" And of course, my loyalty has limits; I have critical thinking skills, and if I think that what they're doing/wanting/whatever is wrong, I'll tell them so.

    That wasn't the clearest answer... but I hope it helped
    Quote Originally Posted by Nørrsken impersonating EJCC
    It's strange. I keep banning morons, but they keep signing up? What is this?
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    want to ask me something? go for it!

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