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Thread: Ask an ESTJ!

  1. #1041
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    That's the thing about ESTJs - with regard to opinions and motivations, we're incredibly up front. But that's not to say that we don't hide things. Everybody has a facet of themselves that they don't reveal to everyone. It's just that what we hold in are feelings, not facts. A lot of Thinkers are like that, from my experience - blunt, but avoiding vulnerability.
    Yes, I suppose that is often true. It's an interesting fact of human nature that the people that seem the toughest are usually defending a soft spot.

    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Interesting that I'd hear this from an INTP. Most people I've encountered who have this issue are INFJs. They vent at people, and ESTJs take it as sincerity and get confused/bewildered.
    Oh, no. By hot air I meant more like thinking INTP out loud, aka babbling . Not so much actually dumping or venting. I do this occasionally, but not terribly often and I always mean what I say.

    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    With regards to ESTJs reading messages into things - my theory is that it's because, no matter how talkative an ESTJ is, they don't use many unnecessary words. They get right to the point. So, because they have that internal standard for themselves, they can't help but project that on other people, and assume that they mean everything they say.
    I guess everyone does this, project and assume that the other person thinks like themselves.

    I think it's cool that ESTJ's seem to have such concrete thoughts. When a subject comes up, like for instance, finding ways to work with people we find unpleasant, I automatically think of a theoretical person that I would find unpleasant. Heck even if I *meet* an unpleasant person I classify them as an abstract. An ESTJ is thinking of one specific unpleasant person, and probably the one that pissed her off yesterday. It's like watching the engine run in a car with the hood up.

    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    The closest thing that I can come up with is that I sometimes think out loud. My INTP dad, for example, will call me out on the fact that, when asked, I won't necessarily give THE reason for why I do something right away. And I have to explain to him that I didn't know the real reason, right away. I have to brainstorm. And I have to do that because - and this is something that he doesn't get about me - I have a hard time just sitting and thinking of a reply, when asked to sit and think of one. Without outside stimulation, I start to think about the fact that I'm thinking, and my mind wanders, and suddenly I am completely unable to get my mind to work, and the pressure builds up and I can't even answer the question anymore. Just spouting off reason after reason comes more naturally to me.
    I've read this, about ESTJs being more about doing than reflecting. I envy this sometimes, but reflection has got me out of some bad behavior loops that I'd otherwise be still stuck in today.
    However, that differs from venting, because I still mean everything I'm saying - all the reasons are still valid (except for select occasions, and usually the statement will be followed by "Wait, that's not even remotely true. Sorry about that"). They're just not in order of importance.
    I guess what I was talking was code speak. I don't know how common this is with ESTJs, but my ESTJ will drop 'hints' instead of out right saying things. It seems to her referring to something indirectly is a non confrontational way of making a point or saying something that she would otherwise feel uncomfortable saying. Unfortunately you have to drop an anvil on me to get something like that through, it took me by surprise when I realized this.

    It also had me wondering if she was taking some of my random mutterings as some sort of hints or code speak, and then I started getting really worried about what I talk about. It would account for some of the misunderstood behavior.

  2. #1042
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    I'll be honest ( speaking of unsubtle ESTJs): My dad is INTP, and whenever we get into debates, I get really frustrated with him. He'll go off on these tangents and I'll have no idea what his actual point is - which is funny/ironic/hypocritical, since he gets really irritated with people who take too long to get to their point. And because he does that, I interpret that as meaning that I have permission to act the same way with him, so I always feel free to butt in and say "But what's your point?" or "I'm really confused. What are you trying to say?" And when even that won't help the situation, I'll refuse to talk to him about it any more. Not because it's annoying (although it is that), but because it's so draining. I don't want to have to work that hard to understand what someone is talking about, when I could talk to someone else who is actually clear about what they're trying to say.
    Lol, I recognize this, but from your father's stance.
    I like to debate until everything is clear and just to explore ideas ad infinitum. My ESTJ gets bored after a while and when everything is clear "for all practical purposes" he wants to get to another topic, while I want to explore the idea further, finding alternative ways to convey the same to get it more clear... I haven't got a "point" yet while I'm debating, I'm trying to find things out.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tamske View Post
    Lol, I recognize this, but from your father's stance.
    I like to debate until everything is clear and just to explore ideas ad infinitum. My ESTJ gets bored after a while and when everything is clear "for all practical purposes" he wants to get to another topic, while I want to explore the idea further, finding alternative ways to convey the same to get it more clear... I haven't got a "point" yet while I'm debating, I'm trying to find things out.
    I do this too, and appropriately enough, I'm working on a theory that I may be a 'broken' or borderline ENTP. Even though I test as INTP, I have very strong ESTP characteristics.

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    ESTJ's: Do you find that you use sarcasm frequently?

  5. #1045
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    Hmm. I would have to say I use it a fair amount, but it's rarely meant to be malicious.
    Murphy Brown: What is it with us? Why can't we take the easy road once in awhile?
    Avery Brown: Because it's boring and dishonest and uncomfortable, like wearing a pair of shoes all day that pinch your feet.

    approx 55% ES, 90% TJ

  6. #1046
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    Quote Originally Posted by mnestic View Post
    Hmm. I would have to say I use it a fair amount, but it's rarely meant to be malicious.
    My ESTJ friend and I get along remarkably well (personality types be damned!) and I think it's because we're both incredibly sarcastic. I've found that she's far less sarcastic with her other friends than with me. Guess I just bring that out in her. I don't know if that's a good thing, though.

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    Thinking about your question made me think about how my humor is sometimes misunderstood, and I wonder if that is true of other ESTJs as well. I'm sometimes mistaken for being kidding when I'm serious (and I'm often srs) and serious when I'm kidding. It's like my sarcasm is expressed in a way that's really similar to my my actual anger, and poeple get them confused.

    I am not surprised you have an ESTJ best friend-- one of my BFFs is an INFP.
    Murphy Brown: What is it with us? Why can't we take the easy road once in awhile?
    Avery Brown: Because it's boring and dishonest and uncomfortable, like wearing a pair of shoes all day that pinch your feet.

    approx 55% ES, 90% TJ

  8. #1048
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qlippoth View Post
    It's like watching the engine run in a car with the hood up.
    Sometimes I wish everyone was like this, so I wouldn't have to consciously/effortfully try to figure out what's going through people's heads. It's a common theme with people of all types - "Why isn't everyone like ME?"
    I guess what I was talking was code speak. I don't know how common this is with ESTJs, but my ESTJ will drop 'hints' instead of out right saying things. It seems to her referring to something indirectly is a non confrontational way of making a point or saying something that she would otherwise feel uncomfortable saying. Unfortunately you have to drop an anvil on me to get something like that through, it took me by surprise when I realized this.
    I'm more and more surprised that this person is actually an ESTJ, because that's not an ESTJ trait. At all. We're almost always honest and straightforward people. In fact, that stereotypical girl trait - i.e. giving hints and getting mad/blaming people when they don't get the hints - really pisses me off. Someone else earlier in the thread was talking about how her mom had an interchange with her, where she was mad, and the person asked what the problem was, and she said "You know what the problem is." and didn't elaborate. That's when I knew that she was NOT a healthy ESTJ. Because we don't do that.
    It also had me wondering if she was taking some of my random mutterings as some sort of hints or code speak, and then I started getting really worried about what I talk about. It would account for some of the misunderstood behavior.
    One person I know who often uses me as a sounding board will often warn me in advance that she's doing that, e.g. "I'm just thinking out loud here". That might be something to try.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lisa*Lisa View Post
    My ESTJ friend and I get along remarkably well (personality types be damned!) and I think it's because we're both incredibly sarcastic. I've found that she's far less sarcastic with her other friends than with me. Guess I just bring that out in her. I don't know if that's a good thing, though.
    I don't know if it's a good or a bad thing. It's just her adapting her sense of humor to the situation. I don't know about other ESTJs, but I do that all the time - e.g. I'm pretty chatty and Te around my quieter friends (who are INFJ and ENTP, mostly), but around my louder friends (INTJ and ENFJ), I'm more of a listener than a talker. I guess everyone does that a little, but I don't notice it in as extreme a form, with other people. Sometimes I even have to catch myself when I do that, because sometimes when I try to make nice with total jerks, I find myself acting like a jerk, because that's the only way I can get along with them. And usually when that happens, I try to remove myself from the situation so I can stop being horrible and regain my dignity
    Quote Originally Posted by Tamske View Post
    Lol, I recognize this, but from your father's stance.
    I like to debate until everything is clear and just to explore ideas ad infinitum. My ESTJ gets bored after a while and when everything is clear "for all practical purposes" he wants to get to another topic, while I want to explore the idea further, finding alternative ways to convey the same to get it more clear... I haven't got a "point" yet while I'm debating, I'm trying to find things out.
    Wow. To each their own, I suppose. I mean, without that sort of approach, the world wouldn't have quite as much innovation. But still... I can't function well in conversations like that.

    Quote Originally Posted by mnestic View Post
    Thinking about your question made me think about how my humor is sometimes misunderstood, and I wonder if that is true of other ESTJs as well. I'm sometimes mistaken for being kidding when I'm serious (and I'm often srs) and serious when I'm kidding. It's like my sarcasm is expressed in a way that's really similar to my my actual anger, and poeple get them confused.
    That definitely happens to me sometimes. Not as much anymore, but it was a huge problem in high school - adults would get my sense of humor, and peers wouldn't. Most people I knew who thought I was funny were over 35 and most kids I knew, maybe four deadpan/funny-ish/random statements out of ten, would go "Wait - was that a joke?"
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    That definitely happens to me sometimes. Not as much anymore, but it was a huge problem in high school - adults would get my sense of humor, and peers wouldn't. Most people I knew who thought I was funny were over 35 and most kids I knew, maybe four deadpan/funny-ish/random statements out of ten, would go "Wait - was that a joke?"
    Heh, I've been on the other side of this. At its most deadpan, ESTJ humor is a contrary statement, which doesn't even register as humor on my scale. When I miss it it mostly has a 'you got trolled' effect on me. But I'm guessing they just thought that the statement was *obviously* a joke. When paired with a sarcastic voice ESTJ humor suits me just fine.

  10. #1050
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    Quote Originally Posted by mnestic View Post
    It's like my sarcasm is expressed in a way that's really similar to my my actual anger, and people get them confused.
    This is very well said. I can totally see this in her and there have been times I interpret her comments incorrectly because of this.

    Quote Originally Posted by mnestic View Post
    I am not surprised you have an ESTJ best friend-- one of my BFFs is an INFP.
    We really do have a great relationship. She helps me get my crap together and I help her to relax and not take everything so seriously. It works well for us. (<------ I'm the pink, she's the blue.)

    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    I don't know if it's a good or a bad thing. It's just her adapting her sense of humor to the situation. I don't know about other ESTJs, but I do that all the time - e.g. I'm pretty chatty and Te around my quieter friends (who are INFJ and ENTP, mostly), but around my louder friends (INTJ and ENFJ), I'm more of a listener than a talker. I guess everyone does that a little, but I don't notice it in as extreme a form, with other people. Sometimes I even have to catch myself when I do that, because sometimes when I try to make nice with total jerks, I find myself acting like a jerk, because that's the only way I can get along with them. And usually when that happens, I try to remove myself from the situation so I can stop being horrible and regain my dignity
    This is interesting. I'll have to gauge her behavior the next time we're out and see if she handles herself the same way. Thanks!

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