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  1. #1
    Senior Member run's Avatar
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    Default ISFJ parents/spouse/sibling

    My mom is ISFJ and let me start by saying my SJ parents are very understanding of my INTP ways, and she doesn't demand as much emotional confirmation as she used to. But since December, she still hasn't gotten the concept of discussing emotional matters before playing the blame game. Which leads me to the whole concept of being a J. Can I expect a J to discuss emotions with me without making judgments? I'm one who believes in discussing beforehand, because we're all human and we don't know everything. But isn't that the opposite of what a J does?

    Anyways, I'm tired of her pointing the finger, then running away. What am I doing wrong? Is this just the weakness of an ISFJ?

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    Nerd King Usurper Edgar's Avatar
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    It seems that everybody has an ISFJ mom, except me.

    SJ and NP is the toughest combination to get along, in my experience.

    The best thing you can do is try to make her feel appreciated (by remembering every damn anniversary and holiday), then she'll ease off of you with the blame game.

    But don't expect smooth sailing until after you get your distance (i.e. move away to another part of the country)
    Listen to me, baby, you got to understand, you're old enough to learn the makings of a man.

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    Pronounced eye-ee-dee Eiddy's Avatar
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    LOL Edgar.. are we really that bad. Opps don't answer that!

    Run, she will probably play the blame game, if you do not follow by her rules..

    You know, the be home before 10 or at least call.
    Keep your room tidy or your door closed, even so try to keep it tidy.
    Do your work, homework, housework etc.. She might get tired of taking care of everybody else and can't stand disorder in the house.

    Other than that all should be easy to manage. Oh, and talk to her first and foremost, when we feel we are a part of your life and there are some emotional connections we can go back to being happy sitting on the nest egg. LOL

    If all of that doesn't work.. Sorry, then she could be a tough one. Wait a minute my daughter is INTP. At least act like you could give a rat's patoota.. hahaha

    Sorry, but ISFj's are not that horrible, but we can be exacting in the above matters..

    Oh after all of that, what does she exactly blame you for???
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  4. #4
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by run View Post
    My mom is ISFJ and let me start by saying my SJ parents are very understanding of my INTP ways, and she doesn't demand as much emotional confirmation as she used to. But since December, she still hasn't gotten the concept of discussing emotional matters before playing the blame game. Which leads me to the whole concept of being a J. Can I expect a J to discuss emotions with me without making judgments? I'm one who believes in discussing beforehand, because we're all human and we don't know everything. But isn't that the opposite of what a J does?

    Anyways, I'm tired of her pointing the finger, then running away. What am I doing wrong? Is this just the weakness of an ISFJ?
    Uggh. ISFJs tend to hate conflict, but they also form judgments. The Si function creates a template against which everything else is compared, and things that don't match up to the template are deviant and need to be fixed. The ISFJ acts on this Si perception with Fe -- using the socials conventions that she knows to express her relational commitments.

    Other types might be more direct, more abrasive, hands-on, or whatever; ISFJ is sort of constrained to expressing her Si worldview via a form of etiquette, rather than directly. Hence, passive-aggressive behavior.

    Note that there really isn't much discussion to be had. INTPs might want to discuss things in order to collect data, so they can figure out the "right way to view something"; ISFJ wants to discuss things in order to either get a plan in place (i.e., impose structure) or else to find out your feelings because she loves you, but it's not necessarily going to change how she sees the world. She doesn't want her worldview changed, she just wants to know what you're feeling so that she can do what she can to do something to reflect her commitment to you as a person. I think for Si people, having one's singular reality heavily challenged is like feeling the ground crumbling under your feet -- you have no idea what to replace your footing with, and pretty soon you will fall.

    (INTPs challenge worldviews by nature.)

    Your best bet is not in trying to change what she believes, it's in speaking her language so that she knows that you care about her. (which can feel sort of dumb to the INTP, to have to do things more as prescribed arbitrarily by society in order to get one's feelings across, but it's sort of necessary). As a blunt example, if you send the Mother's Day card, you love her; if you don't, it means you don't value her; and it doesn't matter what argument you make about how the greeting card companies have fabricated holidays and it's just a stupid card... if the card is part of the signal set she uses to evaluate your feelings towards her, then it's part of the signal set and almost not worth fighting over.

    ISFJ has its own share of misery -- one is that there's a compulsion to always do the right thing and to give without complaint or asking for something back, yet then people often take advantage of them or don't return the favors. So while they are giving out of love, after awhile it's hard to maintain because they feel like they're being taken advantage of -- but they have no real good way (in their view of the world) to resolve that. So it comes out in other ways that feel catty or martyrish. One way to circumvent it is to anticipate their giving to you and to reciprocate without being asked.
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  5. #5
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by run View Post
    My mom is ISFJ and let me start by saying my SJ parents are very understanding of my INTP ways, and she doesn't demand as much emotional confirmation as she used to. But since December, she still hasn't gotten the concept of discussing emotional matters before playing the blame game. Which leads me to the whole concept of being a J. Can I expect a J to discuss emotions with me without making judgments? I'm one who believes in discussing beforehand, because we're all human and we don't know everything. But isn't that the opposite of what a J does?

    Anyways, I'm tired of her pointing the finger, then running away. What am I doing wrong? Is this just the weakness of an ISFJ?
    Actually, we Js tend to communicate by making judgments. I can't really discuss an emotion without judging it, because my expressions are inherently (sometimes even unconsciously) judgmental.

    I'm not sure about ISFJs, but I will say that even after I've made a judgment, you're still free to try and convince me to make a different judgment. If you have a good enough justification, I'll (somewhat grudgingly) change my mind.

    If Si is as rigid and inflexible as is commonly implied, you may be out of luck. Let us hope your mother is more open-minded than you (and most NPs) would think.

    Let me trying giving you a different perspective, though. I remember I once knew a P who reacted to me very strangely. I was expecting something to be done in a particular way, but they wanted it done in another way. When they mentioned this, I was mildly annoyed and confused as to why they wanted to do it that way (because it seemed more complicated, more likely to fail, and had no obvious advantage), so I said, "Do you really HAVE to do it that way?" in a mildly whiny tone. I was expecting them to say, "Yes," and insist on doing it their way anyway, because I figured that was what they thought was best. I would have been mildly annoyed, but not for long. Instead, they went ahead and did it the way I wanted them to, and turned around accused me of "making" them do it, and stormed off in a huff.

    I couldn't really understand the reaction at first, until I thought about it. Apparently they felt guilty about wanting to do it their own way due to my not being enthusiastic about it, and changed their minds! So I have to be enthusiastic about every notion in order to not be "making" them do things my way? That doesn't make any sense. If they feel guilty, then that either means I'm justified and they deserve to feel that, or they're too weak-willed to ignore my opinion and do things their own way (which probably means they didn't have sufficient confidence that their own way was any good to begin with, meaning I saved them from a silly mistake). Either way, it's not my problem, it's theirs.

  6. #6
    Nerd King Usurper Edgar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eiddy View Post
    LOL Edgar.. are we really that bad.
    I don't think that ISFJs are "bad". I just think that some types are more (or less) likely to get along with another type, especially under adverse circumstances.

    SJs tend to be down to earth, and very rule oriented, and Ns (especially NPs) tend to be space cadets who resent rigid structures.

    I had a bunch of run-ins with my ISTJ mom during my youth that resulted in unnecessary drama, and I can tell that my parents are probably the most reasonable and caring parents I have ever encountered.

    And when I was in USMC (an "SJ Guardhouse" if there is one), my NT hijinks built me enough notoriety where I had officers that I've never met before greet me because they recognized my nametag.

    So what I'm trying to say is that when two people are always at each other's throats, sometimes the best solution is to keep them as far away from each other as possible, instead of trying to make them both jump through ridiculous hoops just so there can be a modicum of civility when they are together.

    Opps don't answer that!
    See? Not very rule oriented or compliant.
    Listen to me, baby, you got to understand, you're old enough to learn the makings of a man.

  7. #7
    Senior Member run's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Your best bet is not in trying to change what she believes, it's in speaking her language so that she knows that you care about her. (which can feel sort of dumb to the INTP, to have to do things more as prescribed arbitrarily by society in order to get one's feelings across, but it's sort of necessary). As a blunt example, if you send the Mother's Day card, you love her; if you don't, it means you don't value her; and it doesn't matter what argument you make about how the greeting card companies have fabricated holidays and it's just a stupid card... if the card is part of the signal set she uses to evaluate your feelings towards her, then it's part of the signal set and almost not worth fighting over.
    that's all fine and good, but she says "if you appreciated what i did, you wouldn't try to to get weekends off work." Well, that's false. But you're saying not to argue. So I'd be obeying her false statement, as well as taking blame for something I shouldn't be. If she said, "if you cared, you'd kill yourself," would you do it?

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    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by run View Post
    that's all fine and good, but she says "if you appreciated what i did, you wouldn't try to to get weekends off work." Well, that's false. But you're saying not to argue. So I'd be obeying her false statement, as well as taking blame for something I shouldn't be. If she said, "if you cared, you'd kill yourself," would you do it?
    You're supposed to do what you want to. But then find other ways of showing your respect/appreciation for her consistently to make up for it. That way, you could say, "I do X, Y, and Z for you, and you still don't believe I appreciate what you do? I guess you're just looking for excuses to invalidate my contributions."

    I wouldn't suggest just doing whatever they want you to regardless of how you feel about it. They need to be taught that they're not always right in their assumptions order to grow as human beings, and by just going along with them, you deprive them of that opportunity. Some may believe that ISFJs can't grow in that way, but I believe they deserve the chance regardless. Then again, I'm an Idealist.

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    Senior Member Saslou's Avatar
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    Ahhh Run. lol

    Being an ESFJ with an ENTP son, oh gosh where do i start?

    I don't need emotion from my son, logic is fine with me. I find with my kid, his views are so concrete (stubborn little bugger) that he is unwilling to even possibly view something from another perspective. Yeah, the kid is smart, doesn't mean he's right just as my view may not be right. I think it is about putting 2 different perspectives together and coming to a compromise.
    I find just getting the kid to talk in the first place a huge chore.

    Count your blessings.
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