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  1. #41
    Senior Member ScottJames's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    We're pretty much settled on it (I think), and I'm pretty sure most of the debate was us against you. Sounds like you didn't actually want to have a debate, though. Which is fine by me as long as you keep in mind what we've been saying about ISTJs. You're new here and it would be a shame if you became one of those closed-minded Ns who thinks of SJs as operating on a lower cognitive level.

    See you round the forum, and may you see the debate through to the end, next time around.
    I have a very good relationship with SJs in my life and I appreciate them very much. I don't doubt the mental capacity of any type. Nothing I say is personal or intended to be personally insulting, so please don't take it as such. I just disagree fundamentally with your assessments and arguments so at some point it becomes like trying to argue with someone about their religion - not really productive for either side.

    Thanks for offering your perspective. I'll see you around. Cheers,

    - Scott

  2. #42
    Sweet Ocean Cloud SD45T-2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    I know IxxJ doesn't equal control freak (I'm not one particularly, and even if anyone has ever questioned me being INFJ they have not questioned me being IxxJ), but I have a REALLY hard time seeing ISFP in that role.

    I am no cognitive function expert but I have a really hard time seeing Sting as an Fi-dom. He doesn't give off anything like the kind of random exuberant energy I associate with xxFP. He comes across as contained and controlled, even in his most cutting-loose moments with the Police. Both, he controls himself and presents his own image in a very specific way, and he likes to control his environment.

    Sting is also quite a precise lyricist and even his most emotional songs have a certain restraint. This is perhaps his Englishness in part (he's quite the English gentleman). But he's inwardly intense, even with a slightly scary/nasty edge at times. I'd associate that far more with ISTJ or INFJ. An ISFP is more likely to have a genuine laid-backness, at least in any experience I've had.
    Maybe INTJ. The way you've described Sting sounds almost just like Roger Waters and what happened with Pink Floyd, although I don't think Sting is quite as cranky and abrasive as Roger. I'm pretty sure Roger is an INTJ 4w5 sp/sx (either 4-5-8 or 4-8-5 tritype).
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  3. #43
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
    Yeah, I think Eddie Van Halen and Sting look enough like ISTJs where it's plausible. They both have that arrogance about them (the disconnect from the object tends to give us unfounded confidence in our perceptions), that deep seriousness. I've seen Eddie on stage and of course on video a few times, and every smile and posture looks totally forced. Not only do I think he could be an ISTJ, I think he's pretty unhealthy. He's highly technical, and amazingly skilled due to tons of practice. I don't think improvisation is a strength of his either as a result of his lack of development.

    Eddie's at left, with the beard, for those who are not familiar. Not sure why Wolfgang's not there, maybe it was past his bedtime.




    Sting also has that typical ISTJ seriousness and as I said, arrogance. He may be better off than Eddie, but I think he's pretty by-the-book in his performances. He's got a great voice though. Looking at this video though, I think this needs reflection. He's a bit too warm/charming... but then, I've been told the same, maybe he's a six also. He's got that... vigilance going on.



    Thoughts?

    I totally agree that Eddie, whatever type he is, is not very "healthy". I mean, in a literal sense...he's been in and out of rehab so many times...but he really does sound very controlling and paranoid. It's a shame because he is a great musician and I thought he was a cutie when he was younger (although at the time I was too young to realise it!).

    Sting is VERY arrogant, I have to say. I adore the man but he annoys me sometimes. Of course, various types could be arrogant but it comes across more J than P to me. I wonder if ISFJ is a possibility too. For some reason, both ISTJ and INFJ seem more likely for him than INTJ or ISFJ.

    Not sure about e-types but I'd be interested to explore further!

    I wouldn't rule out Eddie being an SP though. I don't know enough about his personality, really - I know more about Sting. But actually, the tight-knit family aspect of VH (first Eddie and Alex, and now Eddie/Alex/Wolfie) seems quite SJ, too. It sounds like the VH family members versus the other band members caused a lot of tension over the years.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
    Your whole post was awesome, and I wanted to add to this. Enlightenment is often described as finding peace and happiness with the present moment. If this is the case, then any enlightened person of any type can be content with the rules, or content with a desk job.

    I wish I could work at a desk...
    And - if you know what I mean - different people might have different definitions of "the rules" or even "a desk job". Especially "the rules." You could be counter-culture but follow "the rules" of your chosen group or way of life...in fact, I want to write a bit more about that.

    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    I know -- which is why I brought up Ne as a creative force. And @Stephen was right to bring up the possibility that Eddie Van Halen is a not-very-developed ISTJ, because that would mean that he was an ISTJ using Si as a tool to bring what he considers (Fi) to be top-quality music, to the world. Being an innovator without much aid from N!

    I wasn't sure if you were going to reply that way -- "oh, nothing is certain, I thought that was a given" -- but there it is. The only way I can think to reply to that, is that you yourself said that you'd be shocked if there were ANY ISTJs who were well-known innovative musicians, because of the limiting tendencies of Si. However, I wouldn't be shocked, because, like I was saying, the MBTI is not a foolproof tool of distinguishing the innovators who take risks (anyone besides SJs) from the non-innovators who don't take risks (SJs). You say that you know ISTJs, but it's worth re-reading @SilkRoad 's first few posts on this thread (including the one that Stephen quoted above), to make sure that you aren't suffering from some confirmation bias.
    I think it's very possible for an SJ, "healthy" or not, to have natural talent as a musician and be extremely hard-working to develop it and become successful. Natural musical talent isn't limited to certain cognitive functions, that's for sure. Eddie is a very technical musician which seems Si-ish. Sometimes I feel his playing really has "heart", sometimes not so much. My brother, incidentally, is probably an ISTJ (though I type him IxTJ for the moment) and loves music, and he's always been more impressed by music which shows amazing technical ability than music which is highly "soulful" or whatever. (His favourite kind of music is "awesome", ie air-punching riffs - which I can totally get on board with too! - and also fast and technical.)

    I wonder what type Jimmy Page is... I am a huge Led Zeppelin fan and to me Page is both incredibly technical, and incredibly soulful. Maybe ENTP or INTP? However, my brother and I always argued about whether Page or Eddie VH was the better musician.

    Quote Originally Posted by SD45T-2 View Post
    Maybe INTJ. The way you've described Sting sounds almost just like Roger Waters and what happened with Pink Floyd, although I don't think Sting is quite as cranky and abrasive as Roger. I'm pretty sure Roger is an INTJ 4w5 sp/sx (either 4-5-8 or 4-8-5 tritype).
    Yeah I could see Roger as INTJ and I know what you mean about the dissolution of Pink Floyd/the Police. But for some reason I don't see Sting that way... I'd be much likely to go for ISTJ or maybe INFJ. Perhaps he is a little too normal? Roger never sounded "normal". Sting is a highly talented and hugely successful musician, but he's also got the charming family, the beautiful country houses where he likes to be the lord of the manor, the organic farm with his wife, etc... Which honestly sounds fairly SJ-ish to me, though maybe I'm subscribing to stereotypes too.

    Just in terms of the question of what types can and can't be like, for whoever is still in this thread and interested: I was thinking again of an ESTJ I used to know. @EJCC and I discussed this guy before. I considered other types for him, but nothing else fits as well as ESTJ. So many traits both positive and negative: he's super-hard-working (to the point of "workaholic" and "keeping busy to avoid other stuff"), shows he cares about others by being helpful in practical ways, is intelligent but much more prone to being practical than intellectual, quite devoted to his friends but far more devoted to his family members, etc. (I think one of his biggest compliments is considering friends to be like family, and he tends to get involved with women who are family-approved... from what I heard I suspect his current girlfriend was picked out for him by his Italian mom and his sister. ) He can be almost ESTP-ish when having fun but he makes it clear that the "fun" episodes are so he can be refreshed and get back to his hard working life. On the negative side, he's distinctly controlling, prone to angry outbursts, seeks out relationships with weaker people he can control (or even manipulate), tends to belittle things he doesn't understand or feels threatened by, has low self-esteem which he tries to cover with a confident veneer, oblivious to others' emotions (and his own too, I think)...etc. I concluded he was quite healthy in some ways and quite unhealthy in others, I think being insecure due to some negative experiences and so on.

    Anyway, the reason I bring up this almost-certainly-ESTJ is because when he was a young man, he was a punk/anarchist. (Not the kind of anarchist who blows things up, but the kind who rejects established government and society, nonetheless.) I've seen pictures of him with the most spectacular mohawk you ever saw. He took loads of drugs which he says was in large part a quest for the meaning of life. And popular wisdom would probably have it that an ESTJ couldn't be in this kind of counter-culture...but he was. Now he's a Christian though not of a very mainstream denomination, but he changed his beliefs and lifestyle because he felt it was the right thing and probably had been looking for something like it for a long time. See what I mean? You can be an ESTJ or some kind of SJ and still be counter-culture or controversial...but acting like an SJ within that, loyal to your group and its beliefs, hard-working, etc.
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  4. #44
    Sweet Ocean Cloud SD45T-2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    My brother, incidentally, is probably an ISTJ (though I type him IxTJ for the moment) and loves music, and he's always been more impressed by music which shows amazing technical ability than music which is highly "soulful" or whatever. (His favourite kind of music is "awesome", ie air-punching riffs - which I can totally get on board with too! - and also fast and technical.)
    Is he an Eric Johnson fan?
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  5. #45
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    I'm pretty sure the legendary soprano Leontyne Price is an ISTJ

    ENFP: We put the Fi in Fire
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  6. #46
    Earth Exalted Thursday's Avatar
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    Yo Yo Ma?
    I N V I C T U S

  7. #47
    Senior Member ScottJames's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thursday View Post
    Yo Yo Ma?
    Hmmm. He actually appears more INTJ to me: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVDILZECdCU I'll do some more homework on him because I really want to find a famous ISTJ musician - so hopefully I'm wrong! Thanks for the suggestion.

  8. #48
    Undisciplined Starry's Avatar
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    This thread has actually been really interesting to me...and I especially appreciate the contributions by @EJCC & @SilkRoad.

    I've never thought to type Sting or Eddie Van Halen...but after putting some thought into it I could totally see both these two as ISTJ. And considering this - has helped explain some aspects of my tested & 'self-identified' ISTJ e1 sister to me. I'm blown-away by her ability to compose some of the most beautiful, soulful (<--stealing that word from SR but it totally applies) music AND by how scary-anal, perfectionist she is when doing so. Yet at the same time...she can seemingly pull-off an easy-going, cheerful, unphased, 'meh I'm just hangin-out up here' persona during presentations...which if you didn't know her...you might miss how controlled everything really is. Yah very interesting to me.

    Oh...and if anyone thinks ISTJs can't be arrogant or take risks (?)...I've got some ISTJs I'd like them to meet. I agree that it is probably a really bad idea to type based on stereotypes and what you would 'expect to see.'

  9. #49
    Senior Member ScottJames's Avatar
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    Ladies and gentlemen, I believe I have finally found a bona-fide famous ISTJ musician.

  10. #50
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    Given the language he uses, I have a hard time seeing Sting as anything but NFJ.

    Quote Originally Posted by A Thousand Years
    I still love you
    I still want you
    A thousand times the mysteries unfold themselves
    Like galaxies in my head

    I still love you
    I still want you
    A thousand times the mysteries unfold themselves
    Like galaxies in my head
    On and on the mysteries unwind themselves
    Eternities still unsaid
    Til you love me
    Quote Originally Posted by Desert Rose
    And as she turns
    This way she moves in the logic of all my dreams
    This fire burns
    I realize that nothing's as it seems

    Sweet desert rose
    This memory of Eden haunts us all
    This desert flower
    This rare perfume, is the sweet intoxication of the Fall
    Quote Originally Posted by Brand New Day
    You're the crop to my rotation
    You're the sum of my equation
    I'm the answer to your question
    If you follow my suggestion
    We can turn this ship around
    We'll go up instead of down
    You're the pan and I'm the handle
    You're the flame and I'm the candle

    Stand up all you lovers in the world
    Stand up and be counted every boy and every girl
    Stand up all you lovers in the world
    We're starting up a brand new day
    Quote Originally Posted by History Will Teach Us Nothing
    If we seek solace in the prisons of the distant past
    Security in human systems we're told will always always last
    Emotions are the sail and blind faith is the mast
    Without the breath of real freedom we're getting nowhere fast
    Discography Titles:

    The Dream of the Blue Turtles
    ...Nothing Like the Sun
    The Soul Cages
    Ten Summoner's Tales
    Mercury Falling
    Brand New Day
    Sacred Love
    Songs from the Labyrinth
    If on a Winter's Night...
    Symphonicities

    I don't need to manufacture trauma in my life to be creative. I have a big enough reservoir of sadness or emotional trauma to last me.
    There's no religion but sex and music.
    I exist in a state of almost perpetual hysteria.
    The deeper you get into Yoga you realize it is a spiritual practice. It's a journey I'm making. I'm heading that way.
    I feel this music has nurtured me as I've been immersing myself in it. I've felt supported by it.
    Humans make the mistake of believing that it is their right to survive. Species die out on this planet all the time without anyone noticing. The planet will still be there, and we must lose this attitude of divine right, that something will save us...
    Songs are built by whimsy, faulty memory, and free association.
    Great music as much about the space in between the notes as it is about the notes themselves.
    In the dingy foyer of the hotel is an old poster from La Comédie Française, sadly peeling from the all behind the desk. Cyrano de Bergerac, it proclaims, a play by Edmond Rostand. I will stand for a few moments to take in its fading gaiety. It is a laughing portrait of a man with an enormous nose and a plumed hat. He is a tragic clown whose misfortune is his honour. He is a man entrusted with a secret; an eloquent and dazzling wit who, having successfully wooed a beautiful woman on behalf of a friend cannot reveal himself as the true author when his friend dies. He is a man who loves but is not loved, and the woman he loves but cannot reach is called Roxanne.

    That night I will go to my room and write a song about a girl. I will call her Roxanne. I will conjure her unpaid from the street below the hotel and cloak her in the romance and the sadness of Rostand’s play, and her creation will change my life.
    At night a candle's brighter than the sun.


    See what I mean?

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