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  1. #21
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScottJames View Post
    ISTJs and INTJs aren't on a fine line between the N and the S though. The 4 letter dichotomy is just a code that reveals the functions, which is actually what the system is all about. They have completely different primary and inferior functions. ISTJs primary function is introverted sensing. Si is more oriented towards structure, stability, tradition, reliability, history and detail. INTJ's primary function is introverted intuition. Ni primaries are going to be more innovative, future oriented, outside-the-box, artistic, and creative. ISTJs thrive within a structure and I've yet to see one who I'd consider a risk taking, creative entrepreneur/star. It would be completely out of character for their type. My dad, my grandfather and several other relatives are ISTJ. I'm an Ni primary (INFJ). Trust me, there's a big difference.
    I prefer to think of it as Ne vs. Ni, in terms of the creative process. Non-SJs tend to forget about our Ne, but it's there, and when SJs become artists, it's a huge driving force within us.

    I was aware of the differences you posted, but the reason why I compared the two was that, because Si and Ni are both so difficult to grasp from an outsider's perspective, ISTJs and INTJs can often be confused with one another. Obviously when you know a person's motivations and modus operandi, it's easy to tell the difference, but we're talking celebrity typing here, and there's no way to know for certain without a very in-depth interview somewhere -- especially when we're talking Si- and Ni-doms, who are fairly private about their motivations anyway, since they're hard to articulate and thus not worth articulating except when absolutely necessary.

    Edit: Regarding the bolded, I might suggest that it's because you weren't necessarily looking for it. And like I said before, if you're raised in a situation where you have to take risks in order to survive, it's hard to keep applying those stereotypes.
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  2. #22
    Sweet Ocean Cloud SD45T-2's Avatar
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    Perhaps Charlie Watts of the Rolling Stones.
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  3. #23
    Senior Member ScottJames's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    I prefer to think of it as Ne vs. Ni, in terms of the creative process. Non-SJs tend to forget about our Ne, but it's there, and when SJs become artists, it's a huge driving force within us.

    I was aware of the differences you posted, but the reason why I compared the two was that, because Si and Ni are both so difficult to grasp from an outsider's perspective, ISTJs and INTJs can often be confused with one another. Obviously when you know a person's motivations and modus operandi, it's easy to tell the difference, but we're talking celebrity typing here, and there's no way to know for certain without a very in-depth interview somewhere -- especially when we're talking Si- and Ni-doms, who are fairly private about their motivations anyway, since they're hard to articulate and thus not worth articulating except when absolutely necessary.

    Edit: Regarding the bolded, I might suggest that it's because you weren't necessarily looking for it. And like I said before, if you're raised in a situation where you have to take risks in order to survive, it's hard to keep applying those stereotypes.
    I'm not saying this to be a dick, but I find SJs, an in particular Si primaries to be relatively easy to distinguish from any kind of intuitive in passive profiling. I'm an INFJ and I grew up in a family of almost all SJs. The differences are pretty clear to me. I love SJs. I think Si is a really awesome function. I have tremendous appreciation for people like my Aunt, who's meticulously crafted a successful online business by doing things 'the right way' and people like my friend Mike who has an amazing appreciation for the history of music and pop culture and builds beautiful instruments. Ne is an influence for all SJs but it shows up quite differently than it does for people who use it as their primary perceiving process and it creates a very different personality than people who have Ni as their primary function. Ni primaries and Si primaries make very different decisions and have very different styles in ways that are clearly observable.

    I don't know if you're familiar, but another side door into the profile for someone like 50 Cent would be Wealth Dynamics. He's clearly at the top of the square, most likely a creator. ISFJs and ISTJs are almost always going to be at the bottom of the square, most often as traders.

    If you could come up with a famous, risk taking, creative, entrepreneur who's actually an ISTJ then I'll be floored. I don't think anything is impossible, but I haven't seen anything that suggests to me that one likely exists. Please prove me wrong. I would definitely learn something.

  4. #24
    Senior Member ScottJames's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SD45T-2 View Post
    Perhaps Charlie Watts of the Rolling Stones.
    Hmmm. That could be a possibility. Good call. I'm going to do some research and watch some videos. I'll be pretty psyched if you're right.

  5. #25
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScottJames View Post
    I'm not saying this to be a dick, but I find SJs, an in particular Si primaries to be relatively easy to distinguish from any kind of intuitive in passive profiling. I'm an INFJ and I grew up in a family of almost all SJs. The differences are pretty clear to me. I love SJs. I think Si is a really awesome function. I have tremendous appreciation for people like my Aunt, who's meticulously crafted a successful online business by doing things 'the right way' and people like my friend Mike who has an amazing appreciation for the history of music and pop culture and builds beautiful instruments. Ne is an influence for all SJs but it shows up quite differently than it does for people who use it as their primary perceiving process and it creates a very different personality than people who have Ni as their primary function. Ni primaries and Si primaries make very different decisions and have very different styles in ways that are clearly observable.

    I don't know if you're familiar, but another side door into the profile for someone like 50 Cent would be Wealth Dynamics. He's clearly at the top of the square, most likely a creator. ISFJs and ISTJs are almost always going to be at the bottom of the square, most often as traders.

    If you could come up with a famous, risk taking, creative, entrepreneur who's actually an ISTJ then I'll be floored. I don't think anything is impossible, but I haven't seen anything that suggests to me that one likely exists. Please prove me wrong. I would definitely learn something.
    I'll shorten a potentially long response by just saying this:

    1) You have a lot of SJ relatives, but not everyone does, and not everyone has Ni/Si insight like an INFJ does. (I specify INFJ, because I've seen INTJs mistype ISTJs as INTJs plenty of times, from the "I relate to them and therefore they must be my type" thought process.)

    2) You are trying to make an "always" and "never" rule about people. You can't say "always" and "never" about any group of people unless you're talking about a group during a particular time block and you have all the data to back it up. There are always exceptions to the rule. Just because neither you nor I can think of a risk-taking ISTJ musical entrepreneur, doesn't mean they can't exist. It's the pitfall of the Myers-Briggs that it often causes people to think this way, but it's what leads to N superiority complexes in the first place. The idea that ISTJs can't be risk-taking entrepreneurs because their dominant function prevents it at a 100% success rate. The idea that Si keeps ISxJs in shackles, tied to their desks, bound to work as part of a pre-established machine, instead of being innovators.

    So, although I can't convince you with a set of facts (because I don't have that set of facts), all I can say is that your thought process is a bit too reliant on the system, and not quite skeptical enough. The MBTI is not that good at its job.


    Now I'll leave the conversation be. Sounds like others had possible ISTJs: @Stephen and others agreed on Eddie Van Halen as being a possibility.
    Edit: Thanks @SD45T-2
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    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



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  6. #26
    Senior Member ScottJames's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    I'll shorten a potentially long response by just saying this:

    1) You have a lot of SJ relatives, but not everyone does, and not everyone has Ni/Si insight like an INFJ does. (I specify INFJ, because I've seen INTJs mistype ISTJs as INTJs plenty of times, from the "I relate to them and therefore they must be my type" thought process.)

    2) You are trying to make an "always" and "never" rule about people. You can't say "always" and "never" about any group of people unless you're talking about a group during a particular time block and you have all the data to back it up. There are always exceptions to the rule. Just because neither you nor I can think of a risk-taking ISTJ musical entrepreneur, doesn't mean they can't exist. It's the pitfall of the Myers-Briggs that it often causes people to think this way, but it's what leads to N superiority complexes in the first place. The idea that ISTJs can't be risk-taking entrepreneurs because their dominant function prevents it at a 100% success rate. The idea that Si keeps ISxJs in shackles, tied to their desks, bound to work as part of a pre-established machine, instead of being innovators.

    So, although I can't convince you with a set of facts (because I don't have that set of facts), all I can say is that your thought process is a bit too reliant on the system, and not quite skeptical enough. The MBTI is not that good at its job.


    Now I'll leave the conversation be. Sounds like others had possible ISTJs: @Stephen and others agreed on Eddie Van Halen as being a possibility.
    Edit: Thanks @SD45T-2
    I absolutely agree with you that type doesn't define what's possible. As a general rule, I don't believe anything more than 99%. Nothing I say I'm claiming to be absolute truth. That being said, behavior and other manifestations can't be separated from the cognitive functions that create them. The functions always leave a trail. I would bet anything I had that if you hooked up, Eddie Van Halen (ISFP), Bruce Springsteen (ENFP), or 50 Cent (INTJ) to an EEG that none of them would turn up ISTJ. Charlie Watts could definitely be a possibility though...

    Anyhow, thanks for the debate. Cheers!

  7. #27
    Senior Member ScottJames's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SD45T-2 View Post
    Perhaps Charlie Watts of the Rolling Stones.
    After doing a little research and watching some videos it appears to me that Charlie Watts is an ISFP. It appears that he doesn't have a very good memory, which is one tipoff. Si primaries tend to be very memory oriented. Bill Belichick (ISTJ) is a good example. He has an amazing memory and relies on it to a high degree in his coaching. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2zzX2mkoHk&t=0m34s Charlie Watts is also more artistic than you'd expect from an ISTJ and appears to be a bit moody at times in a way that seems very Fi to me. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipdQs...eature=related Another thing he's well known for is being an impeccable dresser, which is much more likely for an ISFP than an ISTJ. This isn't an especially thorough assessment, but he doesn't appear to be ISTJ to me.

  8. #28
    Tier 1 Member LunaLuminosity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScottJames View Post
    I'd consider that highly unlikely. Pretty confident he's a sensor perceiver. I'd say ISFP.
    What makes you say that? I was just about to list Sting as very potentially ISTJ, though I've heard ISFP a lot for him too for some reason... But his songs and videos are just sooooo Si'ish.

  9. #29
    Senior Member ScottJames's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LunaLuminosity View Post
    What makes you say that? I was just about to list Sting as very potentially ISTJ, though I've heard ISFP a lot for him too for some reason... But his songs and videos are just sooooo Si'ish.
    He seems to fit the ISFP type pretty well. Notoriously stubborn, especially when he was younger. Very artistic. Individualistic, somewhat rebellious. ISTJ's in general are rarely drawn to roles that involve being artistically creative - and certainly not to the extent that Sting has been throughout his career. Here's an example of something I would consider to be shocking to hear from the mouth of an ISTJ: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4q6A-l5l52g&t=3m45s ISTJs are, in every case that I've seen, oriented towards upholding structure and tradition, and in my assessment would likely be quite uncomfortable in the role of being subversive or challenging people's beliefs on a large scale unless perhaps if they were defending a well established ideal that's held within a structure that they consider to be a part of. Even still I don't see it likely for an ISTJ to be comfortable in the role of a challenger.

  10. #30
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    Sting is a control freak (and I say that although I love him dearly. ) Part of the reason why the Police didn't go on was because Sting wanted everything exactly the way he wanted it... his solo career bears that out, too. He is also deeply, deeply perfectionist, which is why his live shows tend to be a bit over-scripted (again...I've seen him several times and loved his shows, but they're not that spontaneous) and it might be a reason why he's hardly released any original material for close to ten years...I suspect he's suffering from writer's block or he simply can't come up with material that he deems good enough to release.

    For those reasons at least, I could see him as IxxJ more so than other types that have been proposed for him. I've seen convincing arguments for both ISTJ and INFJ...

    By the way, Sting also clashed constantly with Stewart Copeland in the band, who seems classically ESTP. Their relationship (creative but volatile) would seem very much one of opposites or close. But that's a minor point and I'm not sure I'd labour it.


    EDIT: Re what @EJCC was saying, in particular: my view is that any type is capable of doing anything, including ISTJs being risk-taking innovators, ENFPs being content with routine desk jobs, etc etc. The difference is more in HOW they go about these roles. There are too many other factors at work, such as upbringing, environment, beliefs, politics, etc to place people into smaller boxes. Perhaps it is more likely that an ISTJ will be more conventional and an ENFP will be less conventional, for instance, but there is no way it is fixed in stone.

    I think too many people conclude that if they see someone following the rules and looking ok about it, they must be ISTJ, or similar conclusions. Whereas it could be someone of another type who is happy to be conventional in that aspect or certain aspects of their life, but who is more "conventionally" their type in other respects.
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