User Tag List

First 34567 Last

Results 41 to 50 of 73

  1. #41
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    1w2 so/sx
    Posts
    11,099

    Default

    I don't see my ISTJ dad engaging with anyone. He observes in a social setting and hangs around, but doesn't expend much energy asking the other person about themselves, nor does he disclose anything that would allow him to get closer to anyone. He would talk about exactly the same kind of stuff with the next door neighbour, a stranger, my mum or one of the grandkids. It's been a family joke that he would have made an excellent spy, due to the evasive kinds of answers he gives even to inoccuous questions. I think he is lonely, but from what I can see doesn't want to expend the energy it would take to get to know any of us better. I've come to terms with it, but I think it continues to be a huge frustration and disappointment to my mother, who is committed to the marriage, but there is very little intimacy of any sort. At this point, she's given up trying a million different ways and concluded it just isn't in him to do it. Do you think this is a result of upbringing/past experiences, or just a natural tendency of his personality type? I realize our household is drenched in Fe (My mum is ENFJ and I'm INFJ). Maybe that contributes? Who knows.

  2. #42
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    18,529

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I don't see my ISTJ dad engaging with anyone. He observes in a social setting and hangs around, but doesn't expend much energy asking the other person about themselves, nor does he disclose anything that would allow him to get closer to anyone. He would talk about exactly the same kind of stuff with the next door neighbour, a stranger, my mum or one of the grandkids. It's been a family joke that he would have made an excellent spy, due to the evasive kinds of answers he gives even to inoccuous questions. I think he is lonely, but from what I can see doesn't want to expend the energy it would take to get to know any of us better. I've come to terms with it, but I think it continues to be a huge frustration and disappointment to my mother, who is committed to the marriage, but there is very little intimacy of any sort. At this point, she's given up trying a million different ways and concluded it just isn't in him to do it. Do you think this is a result of upbringing/past experiences, or just a natural tendency of his personality type? I realize our household is drenched in Fe (My mum is ENFJ and I'm INFJ). Maybe that contributes? Who knows.
    Why do I feel on reading this that there is something missing?

    Is it because it is the voice of the father missing?

    Or is it because there is something missing in the text? Is it some lunacae in the text, a kind of blind spot, so well concealed even from itself?

    Yes, it seems the text is going to a great deal of trouble to conceal something. What is it?

  3. #43
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    1w2 so/sx
    Posts
    11,099

    Default

    Believe it or don't believe it Mole. I love my father dearly. But I don't understand him. I'd like a different relationship with him, but if that is imposing something type related or expecting what is not possible then I need to give it up. I don't usually get the chance to talk to other ISTJs about this, as they are a rarity here.

  4. #44
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    18,529

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Believe it or don't believe it Mole. I love my father dearly. But I don't understand him. I'd like a different relationship with him, but if that is imposing something type related or expecting what is not possible then I need to give it up. I don't usually get the chance to talk to other ISTJs about this, as they are a rarity here.
    I'm not an ISTJ so if you would prefer I wont post here anymore.

    However I have been reading your posts for a long time and trying to understand you. So learning about your relationship with your father is sure to tell me more about you.

    One would think that the best way to find out about you would be to ask you, but I think you are magnificantly and exquisitely defended so it wouldn't work.

    So all I can do is look for the gaps in what you say and in what you feel.

    And of course it is these very gaps you wish to avoid.

  5. #45
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    1w2 so/sx
    Posts
    11,099

    Default

    I think I'm actually pretty open. I am somewhat confused though as to why you have targeted me in particular as an object of study.

  6. #46
    Ginkgo
    Guest

    Default

    My ISTJ dad can be passive aggressive, but in a lot of ways it seems like he feels that life has defeated him. He's given up on most things aside from garnering money and troubleshooting about practical issues. I think shyness shapes his introversion, and introversion shapes his shyness.

    I don't think his shyness is the biggest obstacle I have when I try to connect with him. The most daunting barrier between us is padded down by the differences in our values. We find it difficult to share experiences and derive the same meaning from them. He's conservative, rigid, remote, and not very open to new experiences.

    I find it easier to touch base with him by doing very classic things like fishing, hiking, playing pool, or something along those lines. It breaks the ice and leaves him more open.

  7. #47
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    1w2 so/sx
    Posts
    11,099

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ginkgo View Post
    My ISTJ dad can be passive aggressive, but in a lot of ways it seems like he feels that life has defeated him. He's given up on most things aside from garnering money and troubleshooting about practical issues. I think shyness shapes his introversion, and introversion shapes his shyness.

    I don't think his shyness is the biggest obstacle I have when I try to connect with him. The most daunting barrier between us is padded down by the differences in our values. We find it difficult to share experiences and derive the same meaning from them. He's conservative, rigid, remote, and not very open to new experiences.

    I find it easier to touch base with him by doing very classic things like fishing, hiking, playing pool, or something along those lines. It breaks the ice and leaves him more open.
    Yeah, I see shades of my dad in that too. There is very much an attitude that others are just better communicators than him and it's too late to fix anything anyhow. He kind of lives in a parallel world to the rest of us in the house, doing what he feels comfortable doing - keeping books, visiting a couple of older people a week or hanging out in the basement researching his ancestors. If there's a meal or something interesting going on, he'll come up. Otherwise, it's mostly only basic greetings, some superficial talk about the weather and that's about it.

    What bothers me I guess is that his activities are at the expense of relationships to anyone who might need him and I think he can show more interest when motivated to do so. I think there's enough underconfidence that he has not goals or plans of his own, doesn't see that he can offer anyone else something they need and doesn't really want to be shifted out of his routine. Most things come down to whether or not he feels like doing them, rather than what is needed to allow the relationship to develop (is this a Fe/Fi divide in perspective?).

    In some ways he wants to relate to my mum like a really responsible oldest son - doing little chores around the house, running errands, but leaving her with the weight of daily business, building relationships with friends, children and grandchildren and with decision making (wanting to ride on her coattails and reap the benfits of that) and not dealing with the relationship stuff that comes up or taking equal responsibility for their relationship or for their future in any sense. To outsiders it appears that my mum is just bossy, but that is not really it. She spent years hoping he would take the lead and trying different ways to allow him to be in that role. In some ways their values and strengths are very complimentary, but the continual desire to spend time with those who do not care about a relationship or who have expectations, or want to find shared meaning together has greatly impacted not only their relationship, but his relationship to almost everyone around him, even though he is a generous, go with the flow, benign kind of presence.

    I'm certainly thankful for the good I see in him and for the fact that he always has supported us in the concrete ways that he knew how to. I just would like to understand if there is just not an interest/need/capacity to have anything closer, or if it is something he wishes for in some way, but has given up on getting due to a lack of confidence in his abilities or frustration at something we're doing. Depending on which it is, my response would be different.

    In case it appears that I am complaining about him, I want you to know that I love and value my dad. However, I do notice that the kind of people my sister and I are attracted to has been in some sense a pendulum swing to his passivity and non-verbalization. At the same time, it's interesting to note that my mother is and ENFJ and my dad is ISTJ. My longest relationship has been to someone who was a confident appearing (but still non-communicative) ESTJ while I am an INFJ. I don't think it is a coincidence. Before getting into another relationship, I would like to understand that a little better and I think understanding where my dad is coming from is a part of that.

  8. #48
    Ginkgo
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Yeah, I see shades of my dad in that too. There is very much an attitude that others are just better communicators than him and it's too late to fix anything anyhow. He kind of lives in a parallel world to the rest of us in the house, doing what he feels comfortable doing - keeping books, visiting a couple of older people a week or hanging out in the basement researching his ancestors. If there's a meal or something interesting going on, he'll come up. Otherwise, it's mostly only basic greetings, some superficial talk about the weather and that's about it.
    Your dad sounds a bit more reclusive than mine. That is, unless he works ridiculous night-shifts every other week.

    What bothers me I guess is that his activities are at the expense of relationships to anyone who might need him and I think he can show more interest when motivated to do so. I think there's enough underconfidence that he has not goals or plans of his own, doesn't see that he can offer anyone else something they need and doesn't really want to be shifted out of his routine. Most things come down to whether or not he feels like doing them, rather than what is needed to allow the relationship to develop (is this a Fe/Fi divide in perspective?).
    I feel similarly about my dad. I'm not going to lie, both my parents tend to be generous people; in fact they often have to bat that generosity back in a cage in order to prevent being taken advantage of. But my dad rarely offers his time to compromise with anyone on a more emotional level. To him, the machine has to continue along its path, even at the expense of honesty. He doesn't see dialogue as inherently productive, while my mom does. I honestly think, to an extent, this is where Fi/Te perspectives and Ti/Fe perspectives tend to differ. Te takes into account how the individual can cause something to happen immediately and in an orderly fashion, as if there's an unspoken regiment that everyone's assumed to understand thoroughly. So, especially with the introverted type, crucial information is omitted.
    In some ways he wants to relate to my mum like a really responsible oldest son - doing little chores around the house, running errands, but leaving her with the weight of daily business, building relationships with friends, children and grandchildren and with decision making (wanting to ride on her coattails and reap the benfits of that) and not dealing with the relationship stuff that comes up or taking equal responsibility for their relationship or for their future in any sense. To outsiders it appears that my mum is just bossy, but that is not really it. She spent years hoping he would take the lead and trying different ways to allow him to be in that role. In some ways their values and strengths are very complimentary, but the continual desire to spend time with those who do not care about a relationship or who have expectations, or want to find shared meaning together has greatly impacted not only their relationship, but his relationship to almost everyone around him, even though he is a generous, go with the flow, benign kind of presence.
    I notice almost the same dynamic between my folks. In a way, their attitudes are paradoxical and their love languages are different. For instance, like your mom, mine often attempts to open different venues for my dad in order to let him be the "leader" in a social way. I mean "social" not only in the context of affairs that exist in the peripherals of the family, but also in the middle of it. However, the fact that she possessed this attitude suggests that she believes she has the authority to evaluate his leadership abilities. Since their "love languages" don't always match, this rarely happens and their interactions basically just escalate without any real communication. On the other side of the coin, my dad attempts to take a "behind the scenes" leadership role by managing finances and complains that my mom doesn't calculate expenses enough. So he ultimately relinquishes any authority that would follow from mutual respect.

    I mean, I can see where both of them come from, and my gut instinct is to take sides, but doing so would stifle legitimate resolution.

    I'm certainly thankful for the good I see in him and for the fact that he always has supported us in the concrete ways that he knew how to. I just would like to understand if there is just not an interest/need/capacity to have anything closer, or if it is something he wishes for in some way, but has given up on getting due to a lack of confidence in his abilities or frustration at something we're doing. Depending on which it is, my response would be different.

    In case it appears that I am complaining about him, I want you to know that I love and value my dad. However, I do notice that the kind of people my sister and I are attracted to has been in some sense a pendulum swing to his passivity and non-verbalization. At the same time, it's interesting to note that my mother is and ENFJ and my dad is ISTJ. My longest relationship has been to someone who was a confident appearing (but still non-communicative) ESTJ while I am an INFJ. I don't think it is a coincidence. Before getting into another relationship, I would like to understand that a little better and I think understanding where my dad is coming from is a part of that.
    If you didn't love your dad, you wouldn't be concerned about him. I identify more with my father than my mother, but there are traces of both in my character; my mom suffers from her own difficulties but ultimately I've picked up more than a few tricks from her, which I am grateful for. I think she's ESFJ, but she sort of insists than she's ENFJ. In some ways, she doesn't hold a candle to an ENFJ I dated, so I'm even more inclined to say she's ESFJ. I don't think the women I've been attracted to are a consequence of coincidence either. There's always some synchronicity there.

  9. #49
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    1w2 so/sx
    Posts
    11,099

    Default

    Yeah, my dad's house centred around work. I don't think any of them really related to each other on a deeper level. He, being the oldest, was probably the most impacted. He also had several extended stays in the hospital at a young age (tonsils and appendix at a toddler kind of age and stage - they did those surgeries more routinely back then). Stays that were long enough for my grandma to comment how much his hair had grown since the last time she saw him. Anyway, she was going to visit him, but the piano tuner came and suggested that it would only upset the child, so she took her coat off and stayed home! He also had to spend two years halfway across the country in junior high, as he was asthmatic and allergic to grain dust (they lived on a farm) and needed reprieve. When he came back, his brother that was more outgoing, bigger, a year younger and more confident had taken his place in some ways, while at the same time feeling that my dad got more attention from the parents.

    He and my mum married when my dad was 21. He greatly admired her and liked the warmth of her family. During the early years of their marriage though, he spent all of the time he did have at work. By the time I was born (I'm 11 years younger than the oldest child in our family), he had a different kind of job and hardly knew what to do with himself now that he didn't have to be at work all the time. He pretty much just filled in those spaces with doing books for various places. At that time though, my mum still hoped that things could change and that if she just tried communicating a different way, he would open up a little more.

    Around the time that my brother and sister were getting married, a lot of things happened (I think that's a hard time in many people's relationships - they realize some things are unlikely to ever change. His inaction also left her hanging out to dry in a couple of ways and she was left unprotected) and I think she lost hope. He still admires her and loves her a lot, but their love languages are very different and he is unlikely to make any changes to adapt or to talk about it. She has mostly quit caring in the same way because she doesn't want to bleed to death internally, but then some things she says have a bit of a hard edge because she is so frustrated (and disappointed that it isn't different and she's committed to the marriage and realizes that it won't fix anything really to split up and will just create new problems) and I think that only makes him feel more sure that it can't change and just burrow deeper inside himself.

    Everything is generally cordial in our house and I think unless certain exchanges bring it to his attention, it appears not to really bother him. Generally that sort of thing isn't on his radar and if anything is brought up (whether emotional or otherwise), his memory of it seems hazy (and it's ever been thus, so it's not a getting older thing). At the same time, I think my mum's approach sometimes doesn't work that well and she needs someone who will argue back a little bit or challenge her. She's not blameless, but I do think the lion's share of her response is borne out of his emotional unavailability.

  10. #50
    WALMART
    Guest

    Default

    This thread is reaffirming my interest in never producing children.

    Also the forever relationship part.

    Sigh.

Similar Threads

  1. [ISTJ] Why do ISTJs act like robots?
    By RaptorWizard in forum The SJ Guardhouse (ESFJ, ISFJ, ESTJ, ISTJ)
    Replies: 48
    Last Post: 09-17-2013, 08:50 AM
  2. Why are you here?
    By rhinosaur in forum The Bonfire
    Replies: 30
    Last Post: 05-19-2011, 06:08 AM
  3. Why are introverts...
    By Mycroft in forum General Psychology
    Replies: 26
    Last Post: 08-27-2007, 08:46 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO