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  1. #11
    Member OregonENFP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maliafee View Post
    "Oh sure honey, but hold on ONE sec. because I need to go take out the trash really quickly."
    That is brilliant!

  2. #12
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    This reminds me of something, so quick story:

    One of my sisters is an ESFJ, and we are fairly close, but anyway..she was coming to visit me for a week and I decided that I would clean up my apartment a bit, since she is a neat freak. So I thought i did a pretty good job(i even did some "detail" cleaning), and the day she got there, i was having friends coming over to hang out, and she asked me if i was going to clean my place up before my friends came over.

    i was just like....i did clean it, and she walked away laughing as she started to clean things up.

    At first it may be hard to be in this sort of relationship you are experiencing, and having those negative thoughts won't really make it any better, but after awhile you will either meet a compromise in your relationship, like my sister and i have, or you guys will not be able to stand each other and it will end. It's best to just accept each other for who you are, and try to roll with the punches.
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  3. #13
    Senior Member Saslou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scantilyclad View Post
    This reminds me of something, so quick story:

    i was just like....i did clean it, and she walked away laughing as she started to clean things up.
    Lmao .. If it needs to be done then it has to be done properly .. love the humour in it though
    “I made you take time to look at what I saw and when you took time to really notice my flower, you hung all your associations with flowers on my flower and you write about my flower as if I think and see what you think and see—and I don't.”
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  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by maliafee View Post
    It's especially good for an SJ if, when they actually want to relax with you, you say, "Oh sure honey, but hold on ONE sec. because I need to go take out the trash really quickly." They will love this, and then you can devote your time and attention to her afterwards...
    This seems so fake though and fated to be a short-term thing which afterwards the ESFJ would feel misled. I can't picture myself keeping something like this up for very long.

  5. #15
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    I'd be trouble in that I always need reminders. Once the switch is flipped I'm good and can get almost anything done, it just doesn't cross my mind on it's own most of the time...
    Dreams are best served manifest and tangible.

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  6. #16
    Member Phenix's Avatar
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    Of course, you could say that what other people think about you is none of your business.
    Tell her that you want to help, that you want to fit in with her plan, and then ask what to do and how often. Then do it to her standard without her having to ask.
    Surprise her with a gift from time to time.
    SJs, does this sound about right?

  7. #17
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    Thank you all for your replies!

    Again... I'm just seeking any sort of insight, enlightenment, or advice.
    I post this here as much to point out my own flaws and admit to myself that I have issues... but feel free to remind me. I know that I do. This is part of my attempt to get over them.

    I will try not to make this ANY longer than can be helped... but I could really talk on this thing until the internet runs out of characters. Our relationship has consumed me for the past few months... which might be part of the problem. No matter how hard she tries, I always feel somewhat slighted. I live for relationship, and I still fear she sees a relationship as a vital part of her life... but NOT her life. That's reasonable. It's just hard for me sometimes not to be withholding when I feel hurt by this. That might be all in my head, anyway.

    A few things to start off(like I haven't already started off):
    I have major issue with control. I think it all stems back to the fact that I am by nature sacrificing of my time and space in a very subtle, unobtrusive way. This is all fine and well, until I start to worry that this may someday mean that I have far less power in our relationship. I know she would never do anything intentionally to hurt me, but she is by nature more boisterous, and while she will willingly listen for extended periods or is in some(indeed many) ways far more giving than I, she's not this way in her mannerisms, etc. She's the type, for instance, who might donate a kidney to a dying acquaintance, but steal the bed covers at night. I wrote an e-mail to her the other day about how important equality is to me in our relationship... how I don't desire to be dominant or any of that crap. I just want us to be equals. I told her this is why sometimes I fear becoming a jerk at times... because I tend to rail against people I feel are trying to control me or take for granted my "inadvertent generosity", intentionally or otherwise. That's why the whole "me being a pawn" thing bothers me. I don't want to just be a number in some giant equation in her head. I don't want to just fit into her plan... I want to be (as much as I also occasionally rail against planning...) a co-planner, if you will. An equal shareholder. I feel she is, by nature(more because of the family she grew up in), very type-A. I know she doesn't mean it personally, but I sometimes don't want to rest because I'm afraid I'll wake up and all the covers will be gone. Isn't there a pill I can take for this, or something?
    I suppose on this point, I'm just seeking assurance or advice from other SJ's. Though others are of course welcome to comment.

    One thing I do that she seems to really appreciate/enjoy, is send little "maintenance e-mails". After we've hung out... sometimes more on her terms(talking about details and concrete, practical matters... then more details), or on mine(abstract, useless, less practical things), and after having usually rambled on for countless minutes about everything I can think of to mention regarding us and everyone else, and that movie we just watched, etc... I'll still think of things on the drive home and will sometimes sit and write these things to her in an e-mail. These e-mails cover numerous nuances and details and trivial(yet somehow still apparently important. Is that even possible?) details of our relationship that have drifted in my mind for the drive home. Of course, these e-mail go on for miles, much like my posts here. But she seems to really enjoy them. Like, at the very least, she is at least comforted to know that I care enough to send them, though I can't help but think anyone would be asleep by sentence three of paragraph four.
    This is, this comes easily for me. I do this because I feel compelled to, and not because I know she likes it. That why it makes me happy to think that she does appreciate them.

    Sometimes she seems unable to reciprocate. I'll sit and talk about my own insecurities and weaknesses, which is very difficult, and sometimes I get very little of that from her. Thing is, that's okay, as long as it's because those things don't exist in her. I would just dislike it if she had insecurities and weren't sharing them with me. It feels good to know, after you've spilled your guts and exposed your innermost flaws, that the person you've just told might open up as well. I know I spend waaaaay too much time in my head and swimming in my own emotions for my own good. With that in mind, maybe I'm again being unrealistic.

    I've never been drawn to practicality. Banal details(or those I perceive to be) bore me. At best, I admire those who are practical. At worst, such practicality is a turnoff. I know we'll never see eye to eye on this, and I think I'm okay with that. I just never want her to look down on me because of my impractical ways is all. It's bad enough knowing most of mankind judges you for it.

    I feel she is a very atypical ESFJ in some areas.
    Her room is never a shambles, but is often less tidy than my sister's. She occasionally comments on how she doesn't think it's necessary to stress out over something insignificant like a bit of clutter. She obviously cares that things are in some sort of order around her, but is far less strict or uptight about this than some people I know. This makes me feel better, though I know her idea of clean enough and mine will never be the same. That's not to say I'm a slob. *looks around room* Well, maybe a bit of a slob.

    She has spent the last 10 years or so growing up around a somewhat eclectic bunch of people, some of which tend to see things in a somewhat alternative light, and I think a lot of this has rubbed off on her. I also love this about her. In what I assume is unusual ESFJ form, she's talked before about hating the idea of a standard family, and a huge house with perfectly trimmed lawn, etc. She does seem to question the nuclear family/cleaver household ideal(which also to an extent nauseates me... at least the idea of it being the only acceptable way), and it's comforting to know that she's not always craving the typical or expected.

    I've mentioned before how I'd love to live in different places and travel a lot. I of course know that most of these things will likely never happen anywhere other than in my mind, but I like to know the options are open and the possibility is still (almost) always there. She surprised me once by asserting that she'd be happy living alone with me miles away from civilization. I think the major idea was that she didn't care if she While this is hard for me to buy(I always fear she's just saying things to appease my idealistic compulsions... though she promises she's being honest). I don't ever plan on living away from civilization(for long), and I would never expect her to forget all of her friends, or mine for that matter. I'm sure she knows this, but it does feel good to hear her say she cares for me that much. Like she's up for anything as long as I'm there with her. The thought of that makes me extremely happy.

    Are ESFJs by nature manipulative/capable of manipulation? Probably a silly question, considering manipulation probably isn't constrained to one type(pardon my naivety). I am curious about thought processes and motive, so I think about these things a lot. I remember once mentioning manipulation, and she acted like she didn't have much of a clue how one would go about manipulating someone else. Thing is, I was completely baffled by her apparent lack of knowledge on the subject. The fact that I am constantly looking out for manipulation probably says volumes about me, but I was tempted not to believe her because I found it so hard to understand that these things don't cross her mind.


    [edit:] A big thank you to anyone who read all of that. What was originally to be simply a post to clear up a few things of course ended up as an excuse to try and work out relationship stuffs. So thanks.
    Last edited by Augenblick; 05-02-2009 at 07:25 AM. Reason: various typos

  8. #18
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    And now, my individual replies:

    T-Guy: Well, she's assured me a few times that she doesn't care about what job I have, or basically whether I do great things or work as a waiter for the rest of my life. That's hard for me to believe, especially based on what I judge as important to her based on her own actions. But she swears she's being honest(like... over and over). And I'm not completely lacking in the ambition department. I just lack follow-through sometimes. I aspire to do amazing things... I just know myself well enough to know that I don't always achieve what I set out for. I am willing(even by my own drive sometimes) to do things around the house to keep things in order. And I agree... compromise is where it's at. I appreciate your practical advice. I need that more often.
    Worrying about possibilities is something I've been trying to do less of in recent days.

    Eiddy: Haha. The "cute little present" thing has always been a mystery to me. The subtle hints that I care about her are always much easier for me than the larger, more planned things. I have to make an effort to keep these things up for long. I agree that communication is important. And for the most part, my girlfriend and I are pretty good at this.
    As far as being laid back goes... I think it's the best way, but then I'm somewhat biased. Seriously, your comment about her liking my laid back approach to life definitely lifts my spirits. It's nice to think that some people will like you even when you're not trying hard to be someone you're not. If one of those people is in many ways your opposite, and is absolutely gorgeous in so many ways(inside and out)... that's all the more a miracle.

    BlackCat: As hard as that is to wrap my mind around, I think I see what you mean. I see how this could be great advice. Problem is that I sometimes wish she would worry about the things I worried about. There I go with that pesky expectations thing again! :P

    nebbykoo: I am so glad you posted your thoughts. It's always nice to find someone who has a similar first hand experience. Funny thing is, my girlfriend is very extroverted, and sometimes seems to worry that I'll be annoyed at how loud and bubbly she can be. She thinks I'll get tired of these things eventually. While I don't always understand her demeanor, I think she worries about this more than is warranted. Which isn't to say she worries about it all that much.

  9. #19
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    maliafee: Amazing that you'd bring this up. My girlfriend and I have an actual list, right now, of things we want to do on dates. I must admit that if you catch me in the right mood, I've got enough energy to expend toward doing things. And it always makes me feel great when I can do things I know makes her happy. Sometimes, though-- and I don't know why-- it is easy for me to imagine things and then come to feel completely satisfied by the thought of them(without ever having actually done them). I think this is why it's important(on the flip side of this coin) for people to realize why spontaneity is so important for some of us. Having things happen spur of the moment is great because it doesn't allow me the chance to become bored with it before it's even happened.
    For the record, I do plan on... and even look forward to slowly taking care of those things on our list.
    It is somewhat painful to hear the truth about the productivity thing, though I know it's the truth, and it's only fair that I meet her halfway on things. I just know sometimes I need prompting. So doing the actual tasks is normal enough for me. Thinking to do them on my own(since they are of diminished importance to me), is more difficult. But I agree; wholly worthwhile if it means making her happy. Very practical advice. I love how your comment about taking out the trash spawned two or three excited replies(and at least one INFP naysayer). Hahaha
    It's funny that I sometimes mention to her that it's only a matter of time before she starts seeing my flaws, she denies it(though only outwardly, I know. She's not delusional). I know the day will come when I get the lecture about me never helping with the dishes. *sigh* Why can't I bring myself to care about these things?

    scantilyclad: Huh boy, can I relate! It's like a slap in the face! I imagine it would be like an ESFJ writing a poem for an INFP, handing it to them, then having the INFP take out a red pen and start 'improving' on it. Difference being, of course, that it's easier for the INFP to thank the ESFJ and set the poem aside. The ESFJ has to be around the halfway cleaned up room. They can't just set that aside. Still sucks, though.
    I love when my ESFJ writes me things or draws me little pictures.
    (still)Learning to accept her for who she is has helped tremendously.

    heart: I fear the same. yoinks!

    Phenix: Whose side are you on, anyway?! Haha. Seriously, I think it might help that I grew up with an ESFJ and other more practical folks. It's pretty easy for me, when I think about it, to find things I know they might like or appreciate. It's just hard when you always feel you're doing things because other people like them, and you just wish you could care the same way about those things yourself. And there's always the worry that sometimes you might just not have the energy to do what you don't enjoy. Buy why am I telling you this? I'm sure you already know. :P

  10. #20
    Senior Member Saslou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Augenblick View Post
    Thank you all for your replies!

    Again... I'm just seeking any sort of insight, enlightenment, or advice.
    I post this here as much to point out my own flaws and admit to myself that I have issues... but feel free to remind me. I know that I do. This is part of my attempt to get over them.

    I will try not to make this ANY longer than can be helped... but I could really talk on this thing until the internet runs out of characters. Our relationship has consumed me for the past few months... which might be part of the problem. No matter how hard she tries, I always feel somewhat slighted. I live for relationship, and I still fear she sees a relationship as a vital part of her life... but NOT her life. That's reasonable. It's just hard for me sometimes not to be withholding when I feel hurt by this. That might be all in my head, anyway.

    A few things to start off(like I haven't already started off):
    I have major issue with control. I think it all stems back to the fact that I am by nature sacrificing of my time and space in a very subtle, unobtrusive way. This is all fine and well, until I start to worry that this may someday mean that I have far less power in our relationship. I know she would never do anything intentionally to hurt me, but she is by nature more boisterous, and while she will willingly listen for extended periods or is in some(indeed many) ways far more giving than I, she's not this way in her mannerisms, etc. She's the type, for instance, who might donate a kidney to a dying acquaintance, but steal the bed covers at night. I wrote an e-mail to her the other day about how important equality is to me in our relationship... how I don't desire to be dominant or any of that crap. I just want us to be equals. I told her this is why sometimes I fear becoming a jerk at times... because I tend to rail against people I feel are trying to control me or take for granted my "inadvertent generosity", intentionally or otherwise. That's why the whole "me being a pawn" thing bothers me. I don't want to just be a number in some giant equation in her head. I don't want to just fit into her plan... I want to be (as much as I also occasionally rail against planning...) a co-planner, if you will. An equal shareholder. I feel she is, by nature(more because of the family she grew up in), very type-A. I know she doesn't mean it personally, but I sometimes don't want to rest because I'm afraid I'll wake up and all the covers will be gone. Isn't there a pill I can take for this, or something?
    I suppose on this point, I'm just seeking assurance or advice from other SJ's. Though others are of course welcome to comment.

    One thing I do that she seems to really appreciate/enjoy, is send little "maintenance e-mails". After we've hung out... sometimes more on her terms(talking about details and concrete, practical matters... then more details), or on mine(abstract, useless, less practical things), and after having usually rambled on for countless minutes about everything I can think of to mention regarding us and everyone else, and that movie we just watched, etc... I'll still think of things on the drive home and will sometimes sit and write these things to her in an e-mail. These e-mails cover numerous nuances and details and trivial(yet somehow still apparently important. Is that even possible?) details of our relationship that have drifted in my mind for the drive home. Of course, these e-mail go on for miles, much like my posts here. But she seems to really enjoy them. Like, at the very least, she is at least comforted to know that I care enough to send them, though I can't help but think anyone would be asleep by sentence three of paragraph four.
    This is, this comes easily for me. I do this because I feel compelled to, and not because I know she likes it. That why it makes me happy to think that she does appreciate them.

    Sometimes she seems unable to reciprocate. I'll sit and talk about my own insecurities and weaknesses, which is very difficult, and sometimes I get very little of that from her. Thing is, that's okay, as long as it's because those things don't exist in her. I would just dislike it if she had insecurities and weren't sharing them with me. It feels good to know, after you've spilled your guts and exposed your innermost flaws, that the person you've just told might open up as well. I know I spend waaaaay too much time in my head and swimming in my own emotions for my own good. With that in mind, maybe I'm again being unrealistic.

    I've never been drawn to practicality. Banal details(or those I perceive to be) bore me. At best, I admire those who are practical. At worst, such practicality is a turnoff. I know we'll never see eye to eye on this, and I think I'm okay with that. I just never want her to look down on me because of my impractical ways is all. It's bad enough knowing most of mankind judges you for it.

    I feel she is a very atypical ESFJ in some areas.
    Her room is never a shambles, but is often less tidy than my sister's. She occasionally comments on how she doesn't think it's necessary to stress out over something insignificant like a bit of clutter. She obviously cares that things are in some sort of order around her, but is far less strict or uptight about this than some people I know. This makes me feel better, though I know her idea of clean enough and mine will never be the same. That's not to say I'm a slob. *looks around room* Well, maybe a bit of a slob.

    She has spent the last 10 years or so growing up around a somewhat eclectic bunch of people, some of which tend to see things in a somewhat alternative light, and I think a lot of this has rubbed off on her. I also love this about her. In what I assume is unusual ESFJ form, she's talked before about hating the idea of a standard family, and a huge house with perfectly trimmed lawn, etc. She does seem to question the nuclear family/cleaver household ideal(which also to an extent nauseates me... at least the idea of it being the only acceptable way), and it's comforting to know that she's not always craving the typical or expected.

    I've mentioned before how I'd love to live in different places and travel a lot. I of course know that most of these things will likely never happen anywhere other than in my mind, but I like to know the options are open and the possibility is still (almost) always there. She surprised me once by asserting that she'd be happy living alone with me miles away from civilization. I think the major idea was that she didn't care if she While this is hard for me to buy(I always fear she's just saying things to appease my idealistic compulsions... though she promises she's being honest). I don't ever plan on living away from civilization(for long), and I would never expect her to forget all of her friends, or mine for that matter. I'm sure she knows this, but it does feel good to hear her say she cares for me that much. Like she's up for anything as long as I'm there with her. The thought of that makes me extremely happy.

    Are ESFJs by nature manipulative/capable of manipulation? Probably a silly question, considering manipulation probably isn't constrained to one type(pardon my naivety). I am curious about thought processes and motive, so I think about these things a lot. I remember once mentioning manipulation, and she acted like she didn't have much of a clue how one would go about manipulating someone else. Thing is, I was completely baffled by her apparent lack of knowledge on the subject. The fact that I am constantly looking out for manipulation probably says volumes about me, but I was tempted not to believe her because I found it so hard to understand that these things don't cross her mind.


    [edit:] A big thank you to anyone who read all of that. What was originally to be simply a post to clear up a few things of course ended up as an excuse to try and work out relationship stuffs. So thanks.
    Hi there ..
    Excuse my bluntness but i have to reply .. my blood pressure is slightly raised .. now i think this has something to do with your words and how i can connect what you are saying with how my ex was (he was a INTJ) .. So i am just going to go for it ..
    So you view relationships differently .. Why withhold? she is going to pick up on that so cause tension .. If you are both happy and having fun, don't over-anaylse please .. just see what happens.

    Listen to what she says .. if she don't care about your job, she don't care, she may push you if you want to better yourself, she'll be great at that .. but she is being honest i am sure ..

    Moderate control freak .. YES (well me anyway) .. She probably does want to be your equal .. or maybe she looks at you and your strengths as her weaknesses and visa versa .. Boisterous, kind, and the rest .. yes its all true .. Can you accept it or not?? You are different people .. there is a connection, i get that, i had that, sometimes maybe you just cant put your finger on why you have a connection!!

    The emails .. Oh yes .. put the time and effort in and she'll love it .. I see myself as a curious child (there is an inner child in me) and i am constantly looking, probing and even analyzing .. How old is she? .. if she is young, maybe she is putting you on a pedestal .. I did that and could only be disappointed ..

    Discussing weaknesses and insecurities .. You haven't been together long .. i struggle to get my head around myself .. and you want her to sit and bear her soul to you .. OUCH .. personally i would be running for the hills so for the fact she is still there is a good sign. Plant a seed in her head and see where it goes .. but don't sit and expect her to share/behave the same as you.

    Practicality .. We are doers, we don't sink, we swim .. Your lack of motivation may get to her .. she just needs to speak up if she has a problem (easier said than done).

    Slob .. If she wants to keep things clean and orderly .. just don't give her hell for it .. i am thinking clean house, calm mind.

    Conforming .. I don't think she is untypical here .. Don't get me wrong, i like the idea of conforming but really i am a rebel .. tell me where the line is and i will always cross it .. be in relationships, work, kids etc etc

    Places and travel .. I gave up my parents and siblings to emigrate from England to Canada .. Why? .. because it was what i wanted to do .. you don't live your life for others, you live it for yourself, so just listen to what she is saying there ..

    Manipulation .. I will never manipulate someone to get what i want during a relationship .. i just ask nicely and usually get ..lol .. and if i don't oh well .. i had thought about manipulating him though once at the end and i never thought i would ever say that .. i didn't go through with it though .. i ended up bowing out with some respect for myself .. So maybe she is just being naive ..

    Sorry if i have bored you .. i feel rather calm now .. One last point .. Don't over-analyze .. its early days .. what about the fun, the romance.
    Do you feel that spark with her???
    “I made you take time to look at what I saw and when you took time to really notice my flower, you hung all your associations with flowers on my flower and you write about my flower as if I think and see what you think and see—and I don't.”
    ― Georgia O'Keeffe

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