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  1. #11
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Yes, ESTJs are some of the worst about bottling up their emotions and then letting them explode...worse than most for sure. Interestingly, I have seen INFPs exhibit similar behavior for completely different reasons. (For them it usually has to do with being so conflict-avoidant that they never stand up for themselves, but ironically this can lead to the same relationship problems that ESTJs create for themselves through the exact opposite behavior!)

    ENTJ and INTP tend to be the most emotion-stupid types, in my experience (though ENTP, INTJ and ISTP tend not to be too great at it either.) ESTJs aren't quite as bad in that regard because being SJs, their moral codes tend to be more traditional, and most traditional moral codes involve the idea that you should have some respect for the feelings of others...I suspect that by and large, ESTJs feel more guilty about being "mean" to people than do their ENTJ cousins.

    NTs are much more inclined to simply intuit their own moral codes, and so you get a disproportionate amount of ENTJs who see emotion as weakness and flat out don't give a shit who they step on emotionally. As for INTPs, well...they haven't yet figured out a reason that emotion should exist at all; most of the ones I know are really intent on not showing emotion at all. I suppose it's a Thinking-dominant thing?
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  2. #12
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    First, it is nice to encounter a real, live ESTJ in the typology central forums, as the ones I know have had little interest in discussing MBTI. ESTJs often get a bad rap, but they also have some very attractive and interesting qualities. I do not think that they are the most emotionally stupid, but I do think that they often don't spend much time sorting theirs out. My ESTJ boyfriend and I broke up a couple of months ago after nearly five years. I am an INFJ.

    I am fairly private about my emotions except with those very close to me. Unfortunately I can't hide mine well and I also need some sense of closure to conflict, even if it is agreeing to disagree. When there was no response even when it was an important, reoccurring issue, it felt like rejection of me personally. I believe maybe it was that he was not sure how to stay in control and he found it better just to hope the problem would go away.

    One thing I really noticed was that if was going somewhere or doing something, he would want to make sure that he had my evening planned out for me (which I bristled at) because then he would feel I was taken care of and he wouldn't feel bad about doing his own thing.

    I also observed that before every holiday when we would be apart, he would start treating me rudely or spending all his time with casual acquaintances for about a month before. I think this too is a way of avoiding feeling out of control. I am curious to know if that is right from an ESTJ perspective or if there is something I haven't considered.

    We are now both leaving the place where we have both taught for five years and I see him distancing himself from the people he knew for the whole tim and trivializing the relationship between them. He broke up with me even though just before he said he had been distancing me and wanted to get closer. He's become very negative about the place and exceptionally gossipy, and started partying with people that are not of a strata he would normally want to be associated with. None of these behaviours seem typical of him. Are these traits of an ESTJ under stress or are they just his own choices?

    At first I thought he just didn't have strong emotions. Now, I know that he just keeps them well hidden. It is hard to know how to react in a way that would help him best and be most productive.

  3. #13
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Well, to answer your question, I'm inclined to say neither. It sounds like the behaviors of an unhealthy ESTJ.

    I also observed that before every holiday when we would be apart, he would start treating me rudely or spending all his time with casual acquaintances for about a month before. I think this too is a way of avoiding feeling out of control. I am curious to know if that is right from an ESTJ perspective or if there is something I haven't considered.
    That sounds right to me. He probably worried a lot about what you could be doing without him - sort of a jealous lover thing. I think this probably has more to do with his insecurity than his type (though both must have had a hand in it).

    We are now both leaving the place where we have both taught for five years and I see him distancing himself from the people he knew for the whole tim and trivializing the relationship between them. He broke up with me even though just before he said he had been distancing me and wanted to get closer. He's become very negative about the place and exceptionally gossipy, and started partying with people that are not of a strata he would normally want to be associated with. None of these behaviours seem typical of him. Are these traits of an ESTJ under stress or are they just his own choices?
    Those look like unhealthy ESTJ under extreme stress. In both cases, it's rationalizing, in order to avoid emotion. (I think ESTJs are exceptionally talented at rationalizing ) With you, he may have broken up with you because even though he was ready to go further, he was absolutely terrified to. (I know I'm terrible with taking ANY person-to-person relationship "closer".) Of course, you know him, and I don't. With the place where you taught, his departure from there may have hurt him, and so, as a last-ditch effort at self-protection, he tried to convince himself that they weren't so great over there anyway.

    These are very interesting anecdotes. Thank you for your input. It's especially interesting because it's not emotional outbursting - it's going to great lengths to AVOID emotional outbursting. I guess we do that too.
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
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  4. #14
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Thanks so much for your response. From what I've read about ESTJs, I believe you're right that some of the things I saw, especially towards the end are the ESTJ under stress.

    There is definitely a feeling of "these guys were never so great anyway" to help deal with leaving (also a lot of negativity about school and the way it is run). Any of the people that he knew for the whole five years, he has distanced himself from in favour of partying with new acquaintances that he does not respect but who think he is great. He has triviliazed his relationships with people that used to invite him for dinner regularly and worked closely with him (told them they were only co-workers anyway and he had no intention of keeping in touch with them afterwards). When I asked him if he and a buddy that he went on four ski trips with would keep in touch (the buddy moved about 8 hours away after our first couple of years here but they still hung out all the time when he was in town for work) he said, "Why would I? He was just someone to go skiing with and nothing more".

    I think it's also had a lot to do with being unsure of where and if he would get a job. He can't deal with not knowing. None of the rest of us had any doubts that he would do well, but he kept on talking about what Plan A, B, and C were and was upset that we did not have several back up plans. (he ended up getting a principalship in the place he has been dreaming of living at a great school.) After lots of talking, he and I had already concluded quite awhile before that we did not see the world in enough of the same light nor communicate well enough to make a go of things outside here, so it wasn't that he was worried about me affecting his plans.

    I am a little confused by the blowing hot and cold thing. Since breaking up in February (no explanation given of why, we had agreed that we had never quit loving each other but just weren't able to move forward so should go our separate ways) with no discussion or visible emotion, he will be very friendly one day and want to tell me all about his plans because he is not emotionally close to many people here. Then he will do something on purpsose to distance me. What is there to be gained from doing that? Sometimes I would almost like to provoke an explosion to get to the truth, but am not sure if I could even be successful with that if I tried. What would the thought process be that he is reacting in this way? I'd think an ESTJ would envision what sort of post-relationship interactions they want, be consistent and make that happen.

    As well as working at the same school, he is in the apartment next to me in the fourplex we share. I can see him doing things very uncharacteristic of him - leaving lights and music on when he is not home (he used to rail at other people for that sort of thing), irregular sleep patterns, not answering other people knocking on his door, partying till dawn every night of the weekend (he's 45, partying with 20 somethings - I'm 32) buttering up people he doesn't even like or respect, becoming irresponsible, leaving his door open etc. This looks like signs of distress to me. I have lost enough respect that I have no desire to patch things up or even keep in touch later, but I still care about him and wonder if there is any way to help him.

    We got together when he first arrived here from across the country soon after a big breakup. He has never married and has only lived with one person. In October, his mother was diagnosed with cancer and died by December. His dad had died the year before that. Those circumstances as well as a very challenging school situation brought us together despite being very different people and me having reservations. He told me he loved me by November and cried when I said I wasn't sure because of our differences and because if I get into something it's for the long haul. He told me he really wanted to spend his life with me and marry me. His sister was blown away by the change in him when she saw him at Christmas and said she had never seen him feel that way about anyone. As we spent more time together it because obvious that we would either have to not see each other at all or else start dating so we chose the latter. I think he really did care for me, but perhaps made a hasty decision based on disliking all the other change and uncertainty going on in his life at the time. I don't know now if he was trying to impress me by not partying, showing interest in God etc or if it was sincere. If it was an act, he kept it up for a very long time. I wouldn't do it the same way again if I had it to do over, but there was a lot of good there to love.

    One of the things I found was that there was not much tolerance for questioning or for even resolving problems between us (maybe F/T conflicts contributed?). If I brought up something that really bothered me (and I tried to analyze why I felt that way for quite awhile to make sure it was valid) he would either tell me I was oversensitive or else fire back something that he didn't like about me, even though he never brought it up before. I explained that I'd like to know about those things along the way because it is kinder to let someone know if they are bothering other people or hurting them. He would then say it was no big deal but that if I was going to nitpick, so would he.

    I don't know if that is insecurity, a function of type, or the differences between our two types. As an ESTJ, how would you usually prefer dicey subjects to be brought up?

    Sorry for my rambling and any repetition (I couldn't look back at the other posts while I was on this screen). I appreciate a peek into your and any other ESTJs heads.

  5. #15
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I think it's also had a lot to do with being unsure of where and if he would get a job. He can't deal with not knowing.
    Holy crap does THIS ring true. I have a hard time dealing with unknowns in a situation. I'm actually in a similar situation right now - being uncertain of your future. It sucks. Some types can deal with it better, but ESTJs are so desperate for closure. I try to just not think about it, but when you have a whole lot else going on (like your ESTJ), it all builds up and it becomes much harder to deal with it. You get to this point when you think "Why can't everything just be ORDERLY and CLEAN and SENSICAL??"

    I am a little confused by the blowing hot and cold thing. Since breaking up in February (no explanation given of why, we had agreed that we had never quit loving each other but just weren't able to move forward so should go our separate ways) with no discussion or visible emotion, he will be very friendly one day and want to tell me all about his plans because he is not emotionally close to many people here. Then he will do something on purpsose to distance me. What is there to be gained from doing that? ...What would the thought process be that he is reacting in this way? I'd think an ESTJ would envision what sort of post-relationship interactions they want, be consistent and make that happen.
    I believe that the issue here is that he's conflicted. He doesn't know whether he wants you in his life or not. He's flip-flopping. It sounds like his life is in transition right now, so he's still trying his best to figure everything out.

    Sometimes I would almost like to provoke an explosion to get to the truth, but am not sure if I could even be successful with that if I tried.
    Please don't do that. That would be really mean. After all, it definitely could work, and if it did, it would be unpleasant for both of you.

    As well as working at the same school, he is in the apartment next to me in the fourplex we share. I can see him doing things very uncharacteristic of him - leaving lights and music on when he is not home (he used to rail at other people for that sort of thing), irregular sleep patterns, not answering other people knocking on his door, partying till dawn every night of the weekend (he's 45, partying with 20 somethings - I'm 32) buttering up people he doesn't even like or respect, becoming irresponsible, leaving his door open etc. This looks like signs of distress to me.
    Yeah, looks like that to me too. I don't think it's type-related.

    As we spent more time together it because obvious that we would either have to not see each other at all or else start dating so we chose the latter. I think he really did care for me, but perhaps made a hasty decision based on disliking all the other change and uncertainty going on in his life at the time. I don't know now if he was trying to impress me by not partying, showing interest in God etc or if it was sincere. If it was an act, he kept it up for a very long time.
    I have a hard time believing that he would put on an act like that. That does NOT seem like an ESTJ thing to do. We're a very sincere type, from my experience - what you see is what you get. He definitely cared for you (the fact that he cried in front of you is proof that you had his trust at the very least). You probably saw him at his best at the beginning, and him at his worst at the end. I doubt that there was any acting involved.

    One of the things I found was that there was not much tolerance for questioning or for even resolving problems between us (maybe F/T conflicts contributed?). If I brought up something that really bothered me (and I tried to analyze why I felt that way for quite awhile to make sure it was valid) he would either tell me I was oversensitive or else fire back something that he didn't like about me, even though he never brought it up before. I explained that I'd like to know about those things along the way because it is kinder to let someone know if they are bothering other people or hurting them. He would then say it was no big deal but that if I was going to nitpick, so would he.
    This does not look like F/T conflict. This looks like unhealthy ESTJ. When discussing something that they can distance themselves from emotionally, ESTJs are excellent problem solvers. When discussing things they consider to be personal, they can sometimes get defensive, and rationalize, etc. Often people say that ESTJs can't take criticism (which is NOT always true), and this is an example of why they say that; ESTJs have a tendency to take criticism personally, because it hurts them, so they retaliate. In his case, this could have been caused by his vulnerability at the time, or it could have been any number of factors. Either way, it's not just type - many ESTJs (including myself, I would like to think) do well at solving problems, be it with Fs or with Ts.

    I don't know if that is insecurity, a function of type, or the differences between our two types. As an ESTJ, how would you usually prefer dicey subjects to be brought up?
    1. I think it's insecurity.
    2. I'd prefer that a person would a. bring it up in private, so I wouldn't be embarrassed in front of others, and b. be direct and honest, but not mean. Considering your type, I doubt that you'd do badly at that. (My INFJ mom is always having me proofread her angry letters to local politicians to see if they're too harsh... and they're never even close )

    Sorry for my rambling and any repetition (I couldn't look back at the other posts while I was on this screen). I appreciate a peek into your and any other ESTJs heads.
    No problem at all. Let me know if what I've said actually helped - I hope that I'm not just BSing without knowing that I am
    Also, thank you for asking me all this. You just inspired me to create a thread.
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



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  6. #16
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    You have been incredibly helpful! I find that there are very few ESTJs in personality forums because they do not tend to be as interested in MBTI. I really appreciate the good things I have seen about ESTJs and since I work at a school, many physed coaches and principals tend to be that personality type, so it is worth my while to try to understand it. It is a great help to get a bit of a peek inside your heads.

    I still care dearly for my ESTJ and hate to see him imploding like this. It helps to have someone sort out what is circumstantial and what is just a different outlook on life.

    I am sorry that ESTJs seem to be as misunderstood as they are. I think at their best ESTJs are efficient, solution oriented, honest, creative, make things happen, curious, fun, great hosts, generous, reliable and worthy of a lot of trust.

    Of course I would never on purpose try to provoke an explosion. It's just that it feels like an impenetrable emotionless wall and there doesn't seem to be any way through it and time is running out. I don't think it's healthy and I would like us to part ways feeling that even if there's no future together that we did matter a lot to each other. However, I also am realizing that I can feel something should be done and it doesn't mean that other people are going to or must do it and I have to accept that.

    What kinds of things do you feel as an ESTJ would make you have an emotional outburst? It seems to me that there is a lot of control of emotions. Would you say that you are generally more easy going than many types about the little things, or does it bother you just as much and you sometimes boil over. Or is the outburst only about something really big that matters?

    With me for example, I can put up with quite a bit as long as I know why the person is doing it. I do have a line that can be crossed, but especially over time I am better at letting the person know when they are very near it. If I do boil over, it is because it is a reoccurring problem not dealt with, there is lying or injustice, I have been embarrassed (usually publicly) by the other person, or they have just pushed their luck so far all at once that I no longer care about preserving the relationship. If the other person is properly sorry or gives an explanation and shows signs of remorse they usually gain admission to a more inner circle. If they don't care one way or the other, I distance myself from them completely. I laughed at what you wrote about proofreading your mother's letters. My mum does the same for me, with similar conclusions!

  7. #17
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Thank you for your compliments Glad I could be of service.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    What kinds of things do you feel as an ESTJ would make you have an emotional outburst? It seems to me that there is a lot of control of emotions. Would you say that you are generally more easy going than many types about the little things, or does it bother you just as much and you sometimes boil over. Or is the outburst only about something really big that matters?
    Hm. Well, I can name two very specific things that would make me blow up.

    1. A gradual buildup of stressors and/or bad events. (There will always be a straw that breaks the camel's back, as the saying goes.)
    2. PMS. (Often, when I get emotional, I just assume that I have PMS, because, most often, that's the issue. So when I look at my calendar and see that it ISN'T that, I get all confused. lol)

    I think that ESTJs are definitely affected by little things, but they aren't as sensitive about them as other types, and they have an automatic response to them, which is what they might call "forgetting about it" (but others might call "bottling it up inside"). Hence, the exploding.

    I do have a line that can be crossed, but especially over time I am better at letting the person know when they are very near it. If I do boil over, it is because it is a reoccurring problem not dealt with, there is lying or injustice, I have been embarrassed (usually publicly) by the other person, or they have just pushed their luck so far all at once that I no longer care about preserving the relationship.
    It's amazing how different people's tempers can be. These situations definitely bug me, but they usually don't get an emotional reaction (I might get loud, and people might think that I'm angry, but I won't be).
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



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  8. #18
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    If an automatic response is forgetting about it, would there be an awareness there when you do eventually explode of what caused it?

    Also, even if things don't bother you enough to provoke any real immediate response is there any kind of mental tally sheet of what annoys you and what doesn't with specific people?

    When you do blow, is it situation specific, or more the culmination of many unreflected things that have been "forgotten about"? Is there any way that someone around you can help alleviate the pressure before it gets to be too much? Can you feel it coming on?

    What kinds of things really bother you, or are the problems mostly internal rather than interpersonal (eg not knowing what is going to happen in the future or in a situation important to you etc)?

    How would you be most likely to deal with a bad day? For example, I would find that having the chance to talk with someone about it (even if they were the problem) disperses most of the clouds that might have gathered. I know this exasperates some types because they feel that I am looking for advice or else start explaining to me why it wasn't so bad. They don't realize that by listening (as long as they don't openly discount it) the problem is mostly solved. The remainder is fixed by having enough time alone to sort it out and decide what to do after I have vented.

  9. #19
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    If an automatic response is forgetting about it, would there be an awareness there when you do eventually explode of what caused it?
    Probably not. Which is why we hate it so much. You go away from it thinking "Why did I do that??" It's scary, actually. It sneaks up on you.

    Don't get me wrong - sometimes it's obvious. If something REALLY stressful has been happening, it's easy to figure out. But... you know.

    Also, even if things don't bother you enough to provoke any real immediate response is there any kind of mental tally sheet of what annoys you and what doesn't with specific people?
    Yeah. But it's not on our minds all the time. If you encounter that person, the tally sheet will pop up (often). But we can shove it out of the way when it isn't wanted.

    When you do blow, is it situation specific, or more the culmination of many unreflected things that have been "forgotten about"? Is there any way that someone around you can help alleviate the pressure before it gets to be too much? Can you feel it coming on?
    It's generally a culmination. And I often don't feel it coming on. Like I said before, it can sneak up on me. And one way to alleviate the pressure would probably be to talk to me about anything stressful that's going on with me. (Although I honestly don't know if anyone else could see it coming either... but I tend to underestimate people in that regard.)

    What kinds of things really bother you, or are the problems mostly internal rather than interpersonal (eg not knowing what is going to happen in the future or in a situation important to you etc)?
    Internal problems? With ESTJs? Whut? just kidding.
    Really, though, it varies between the two. Both can be a problem.
    Interpersonal example: A few years ago I had a huge falling out with a friend of mine, with her being horrible to me for what appeared to be no reason whatsoever, and, because she was my coworker, I had to be near her for hours every day for over a year afterwards, with neither of us speaking to one another. THAT wreaked havoc with my emotions.
    Internal example: applying for schools/jobs... as the result date gets closer, I get more stressed, but I try to keep it in the back of my mind. Which doesn't always work.

    How would you be most likely to deal with a bad day? For example, I would find that having the chance to talk with someone about it (even if they were the problem) disperses most of the clouds that might have gathered. I know this exasperates some types because they feel that I am looking for advice or else start explaining to me why it wasn't so bad. They don't realize that by listening (as long as they don't openly discount it) the problem is mostly solved. The remainder is fixed by having enough time alone to sort it out and decide what to do after I have vented.
    I'm inclined to agree with you. Talking to people about it always helps. Also, spending time with friends and relaxing, after talking to them about it. Of course, one difference between us would be that I'd only really be okay with telling certain people about it (friends, family), because I might get emotional about it.
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



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  10. #20
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    The ESTJs I know don't tend to talk about negative things in their lives though unless they are trivial or the person is on the verge of a breakdown (maybe not even then if you aren't the right person). Maybe it's just not having anyone close enough to feel completely safe with. When internal and interpersonal problems come together at once, I could only imagine the kind of pressure that would build up with nowhere to go.

    What form do ESTJ explosions take? Does the ESTJ feel undignified after the explosion, or just mystified?

    I can't let something rest in my mind until I have figured out why I even have a certain feeling, let alone an explosion at someone. Once I've figured out what caused it I feel like I can control whatever happens or form a viable plan of action. I think this is why closure matters so much to me and why I have a compulsive need to know what the other person is thinking and I always assume the worst. It's like closure in plans matters to you, how you may assume the worst about unknown future situations and you need to gather all information possible to feel secure. Too bad we couldn't shake us all up. together.

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