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  1. #1
    Junior Member deleyd's Avatar
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    Default Question for SJs about trusting authority

    I'm an INTP trying to understand the SJ type. Keirsey says they "trust authority", and I'm not quite sure how to interpret that.
    • Who gets to be a trusted authority?
    • Why aren't all SJ people conservative? Conservatives supposedly trust authority and believe you should be obedient to them. The descriptions match up, but there's no evidence that SJ type are predominately conservative. I figure there must be something I'm not getting about the SJ type, so decided the best way to find out would be to ask some SJ people who aren't conservative.

  2. #2
    Senior Member "?"'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deleyd View Post
    Why aren't all SJ people conservative? Conservatives supposedly trust authority and believe you should be obedient to them.
    I would be careful in making that assertion since many INTPs report to be Republican and Conservative, as well as INTJs. In fact years ago, a poll started at personalitypage.com and I think that INTPs ranked as high, if not higher than ISTJs. In fact here were the actual numbers for INTP, INTJ and ISTJ:
    We had 46 INTPs volunteer their political affiliation. The breakdown is as follows:

    1. Republican - 26% (12/46)
    2. Democrat - 26% (12/46)
    3. Not Political - 15% (7/46)
    4. Middle of the Road - 13% (6/46)
    5. Liberal - 13% (6/46)
    6. Conservative - 4% (2/46)
    7. Other - 2% (1/46)
    8. Libertarian - 0% (0/46)

    We had 21 INTJs volunteer their political affiliation. The breakdown is as follows:

    1. Republican - 33% (7/21)
    2. Not Political - 14% (3/21)
    3. Middle of the Road - 14% (3/21)
    4. Conservative - 10% (2/21)
    5. Democrat - 10% (2/21)
    6. Liberal - 5% (1/21)
    7. Other - 5% (1/21)
    8. Libertarian - 5% (1/21)

    We had 103 ISTJs volunteer their political affiliation. The breakdown is as follows:

    1. Republican - 29% (30/103)
    2. Democrat - 29% (30/103)
    3. Not Political - 13% (13/103)
    4. Middle of the Road - 9% (9/103)
    5. Other - 7% (7/103)
    6. Liberal - 5% (5/103)
    7. Conservative - 4% (4/103)
    8. Libertarian - 2% (2/103)

  3. #3
    Supreme Allied Commander Take Five's Avatar
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    I know that at least the ISTJ type is more conservative than liberal, and more Republican than Democrat in the US. I think "trust authority" is the wrong way to phrase it. "Value authority" would be more in line, at least for myself. I think the SJ peference for structure applies not only to objects but also to human relationships, interaction, and society. An anything-goes anarchic model, in any situation or matter, is seen as less efficient and foolish I think. Structure, and authority, creates order, which is vital.

    In addition, I think there is a difference between power and authority. A person with authority does not necessarily have any power; however, such a person is by definition qualified in some matter. For instance, the Supreme Court has the authority to overturn laws; however, it does not have the power to carry out its rulings.

    In general, SJs I think will recognize people or institutions as being authoritative after having some experience with them. Exactly what or whom is respected as having authority depends more on the individual. In general, parents, grandparents, churches, and professional superiors will be accepted as authorities; however, some circumstances require that figures and institutions lose recognition of authority.

    SJs value authority because it provides them with something that they think is trustworthy. It is impossible to have knowledge or opinions on all things, and SJs will look to authorities when the SJ does not believe himself qualified or capable of making decisions or forming beliefs completely independently.

    This does not mean that SJs will follow authority figures like robots, it means that they value standards of qualification and desire trust. It is foolish to let an insurance agent diagnose you with cancer, instead we look to doctors, who are qualified to make a diagnosis like that. This is why authority is important.

  4. #4
    Senior Member Eagle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deleyd View Post
    I'm an INTP trying to understand the SJ type. Keirsey says they "trust authority", and I'm not quite sure how to interpret that.
    • Who gets to be a trusted authority?
    • Why aren't all SJ people conservative? Conservatives supposedly trust authority and believe you should be obedient to them. The descriptions match up, but there's no evidence that SJ type are predominately conservative. I figure there must be something I'm not getting about the SJ type, so decided the best way to find out would be to ask some SJ people who aren't conservative.
    How about we accept authority until we have reason not to? Authority typically is put there for certain reasons, reasons we have to trust until given actual facts that disagree. The thing that you brought up about conservatives reminds me of a biblical passage. Seeing as a lot of people who keep the Christian faith are conservatives maybe this is your reasoning for making that statement. I highly doubt that it is in any way related. You can trust authority and still disagree with peoples ideals.
    - Caleb

    "I am what I need to be..."

    "Nemo me impune lacessit - No one provokes me with impunity."

  5. #5
    Senior Member Habba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deleyd View Post
    • Who gets to be a trusted authority?
    Depends on the situation. Usually someone who's higher on the chain of command in given context. In school that would be the school personnel. In here it would be the moderators.

    The more supervisory power they have given, the more they should be trusted.
    "The present is theirs; the future, for which I have really worked, is mine."
    -Nikola Tesla

  6. #6
    Senior Member Eagle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Habba View Post
    Depends on the situation. Usually someone who's higher on the chain of command in given context. In school that would be the school personnel. In here it would be the moderators.

    The more supervisory power they have given, the more they should be trusted.
    Typically, yes. That is how it works in our minds.
    - Caleb

    "I am what I need to be..."

    "Nemo me impune lacessit - No one provokes me with impunity."

  7. #7
    Te > Fi > Ni Shaula's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Habba View Post
    The more supervisory power they have given, the more they should be trusted.
    I tend to think the opposite. Where do you draw the line between leader and dictator? Say a leader's power is absolute, do you follow them still? Are you suspicious of their intent?
    Is not to be held accuntable for peeling errors.

  8. #8
    Senior Member Habba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaula View Post
    I tend to think the opposite. Where do you draw the line between leader and dictator? Say a leader's power is absolute, do you follow them still? Are you suspicious of their intent?
    I emphasize the word given.

    I don't draw lines between leaders and dictators. I draw lines between competence and incompetence.

    If the leader leads by an example, then I'll follow. But I will not follow, if the leader raises him/herself above the others, and expects to be recognized as superior.
    "The present is theirs; the future, for which I have really worked, is mine."
    -Nikola Tesla

  9. #9
    Senior Member Eagle's Avatar
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    I would like to say that leadership and dictatorship are two different things and that we are talking not about leading, but authority. So although this is, in part, part of the conversation lets try to tie it back to the main point so everything flows. That way it is all the more clear for our INTP friend.
    - Caleb

    "I am what I need to be..."

    "Nemo me impune lacessit - No one provokes me with impunity."

  10. #10
    Senior Member "?"'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Take Five View Post
    I know that at least the ISTJ type is more conservative than liberal, and more Republican than Democrat in the US. I think "trust authority" is the wrong way to phrase it. "Value authority" would be more in line, at least for myself. I think the SJ peference for structure applies not only to objects but also to human relationships, interaction, and society. An anything-goes anarchic model, in any situation or matter, is seen as less efficient and foolish I think. Structure, and authority, creates order, which is vital.
    I only know of one person who confirmed a preference for ISTJ. She is far more liberal in her views than I, and she is a devout Democrat. Your rephrase of "valuing authority" seems to parallel the enneagram 6 type that vacillates between valuing authority (phobic) and not trusting it (counter phobic). As for the SJ types in general, I wonder whether this has to do with their preference for Affiliative/Cooperative roles in interacting with others (as opposed to the SP and NT Pragmatic/Utilitarian roles)? I know my core value as an SP is that I have no problem with authority as long as the rules make sense and are fair for all.

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