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  1. #41
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    omg libertarian ESFJ

    awesome

    Well, my S and N are like 50-50, but yeah! They could use a few more SJs in that movement. People who, you know, are popular and like to meet up in person to get things done.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  2. #42
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Well, my S and N are like 50-50, but yeah! They could use a few more SJs in that movement. People who, you know, are popular and like to meet up in person to get things done.
    fo sho. An ENFJ Libertarian would be even more surprising to me.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by deleyd View Post
    Whoa, so much to read. I see I'm going to have to clarify my question, which will take me some time to make it succinct enough that it doesn't take hours to read. I'll start a new post if I ever succeed at that.

    I'm basically trying to combine the ideas of Professor George Lakoff and Professor Bob Altemeyer with David Kerisey, and I'm noticing they don't fit. Lakoff's description of a Conservative, and Altemeyer's description of what he calls a Right Wing Authoritarian, both seem to fit Keirsey's description of the SJ Guardian. But all the evidence I've seen so far suggests there's no correlation between being an SJ Guardian and being a Conservative.

    You know us INTP's are irked when things don't fit--when there's a contradiction. We'll pursue this to the end of time until we find out the reason why. There must be something I don't correctly understand, and I'm searching for that.

    All 3 professors, Keirsey, Altemeyer, & Lakoff, have impressive lifetime records. I've no reason to belive any of them are wrong. And yet I can't fit the 3 together, because I'm ending up with "All SJ Guardians should be Conservatives" which just isn't so.
    Very interesting post...

    With respect to authority, I don't much need it, nor value it. If the authority has points about it I agree with then I don't have a problem with it. But I have to live and act based on my personal beliefs and values. I value self-responsibility and accountability in myself. I believe others should demostrate those traits. If people need help and ask for help then I have no problem helping them to the best of my ability. I object to helping others who choose not to act with values I described above. I'm not sure if that's what the three people you refer to were meaning, but it's how I live my life.
    ...doesn't work or play well with others...

  4. #44
    Senior Member Habba's Avatar
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    I don't know much about those parties, but I think democrats are more like my cup of tea. I don't care about politics, it's rather meaningless in the end... They can debate all they want, but politics is just following global trends, rather than political ideologies.

    I just follow.
    "The present is theirs; the future, for which I have really worked, is mine."
    -Nikola Tesla

  5. #45
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deleyd View Post
    I'm an INTP trying to understand the SJ type. Keirsey says they "trust authority", and I'm not quite sure how to interpret that.
    • Who gets to be a trusted authority?
    • Why aren't all SJ people conservative? Conservatives supposedly trust authority and believe you should be obedient to them. The descriptions match up, but there's no evidence that SJ type are predominately conservative. I figure there must be something I'm not getting about the SJ type, so decided the best way to find out would be to ask some SJ people who aren't conservative.
    If they are not conservative, which often happens, it is because they bow to authority.
    The most awesome authority is Daddy.
    Daddy may not be a conservative, see. Daddy may not even be an SJ.

    Family values.
    Humble antecedents.
    Immigrant background.
    Streetbound by the older neighbourhood kids.

    New Money is made by political connections.
    It is essentially public money. An anathema to the Old Money.

  6. #46
    IRL is not real Cimarron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deleyd View Post
    All 3 professors, Keirsey, Altemeyer, & Lakoff, have impressive lifetime records. I've no reason to belive any of them are wrong.
    There may be a little SJ in you yet. You trust in the intellectual authority of these three professors. In the same way, it's difficult to clearly define the kind of "trust in authority" that typifies and includes all SJs.

    Going further, if we say that SJs prefer stability more than the other Temperaments prefer it--stability of environment--then I think it makes sense that those who keep a stable environment will have their respect and trust. Maybe we have more trust and respect for policemen, for example, than other temperaments; even then, it's difficult to fit all SJs into it.
    You can't spell "justice" without ISTJ.

  7. #47
    Senior Member Shadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kai View Post

    I want simplicity in my life, a life of happiness. Experimenting doesn't come to me naturally so I'll leave others to that. However I'd disagree with the notion that SJs don't entertain the complexity of life. It's all about the comfort zone. Most people live based on comfort zones.
    I agree. I don't think it's fair to say we don't think about the complexity of life. I certainly contemplate it a lot and it can make me quite depressed, but those thoughts usually go hand in hand with a sense of relief that right now I'm in a place where my life is not complex. In my life, and probably in many people's lives, complexity is not a good thing, it's what happens when an aspect of your life goes wrong.
    I don't seek out complexity. My ideal situation is where everything runs smoothly and I'm content, with friends, family and a purpose (i.e studying or a job).
    As for this business of going with a certain political party, what's wrong with that? I held my views long before I discovered the Conservative party shared them. I've kept up with current affairs since I was 13, and I'm a Conservative even though my parents vote Lib Dem (my mum's anti-Conservative and marched against Thatcher in the 80s). They're now also kind of apathetic compared to me. I think if you're intelligent you choose the party that best represents your views. Sadly I know that there are people in all political parties who support it because their family tells them to. This doesn't necessarily mean they're all SJs...

  8. #48
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cimarron View Post
    There may be a little SJ in you yet. You trust in the intellectual authority of these three professors. In the same way, it's difficult to clearly define the kind of "trust in authority" that typifies and includes all SJs.

    Going further, if we say that SJs prefer stability more than the other Temperaments prefer it--stability of environment--then I think it makes sense that those who keep a stable environment will have their respect and trust. Maybe we have more trust and respect for policemen, for example, than other temperaments; even then, it's difficult to fit all SJs into it.
    Good points. Who wants to bet that ESTJs are significantly overrepresented among police officers? ^_^
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    Sometimes an SJ will outsource their beliefs to an outside authority, like the Church, political parties, or even Oprah.

    Instead of dealing with all that theoretical and conceptual mess in their heads on their own, deferring to an authority makes things much simpler.
    I don't outsource my beliefs. I simply take a belief, check to make sure it uses complete and sound reasoning, promotes win-win result, and contains no hidden agenda. If it passes the checks, chances are that I'll subscribe to the belief.

    Oh yes, it is much easier to analyze a belief than to come up with one myself.
    Note: I am on the right side of the political spectrum.

  10. #50
    Senior Member Shadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ozz View Post
    I don't outsource my beliefs. I simply take a belief, check to make sure it uses complete and sound reasoning, promotes win-win result, and contains no hidden agenda. If it passes the checks, chances are that I'll subscribe to the belief.

    Oh yes, it is much easier to analyze a belief than to come up with one myself.
    Note: I am on the right side of the political spectrum.

    Plus, when we're talking about politics, what's more effective: joining the political party that represents the majority of your views, or just holding individual views and not taking part in the voting process because of cynicism?

    Having said that, my religious views are very personal and spiritual, and don't match any religion; I'm not a huge fan of 'religion'. But that's not going to affect the world.

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