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  1. #41
    Senior Member uberrogo's Avatar
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    After reading most of this thread, my opinion is that it sounds to me like he has the desire for a leadership role without the knowledge of how to lead effectively or any outlet to effectively lead or place to learn to lead. The road will be long and hard until he figures that out. That was my experience anyway.

  2. #42
    Member OregonENFP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cimarron View Post
    No, not usually--but it may be a little more apparent in arguments, as you said.

    If it's something I've thought a lot about for a long time, there could be really strong resistance to changing my mind. As if to say, "I doubt you've given this as much thought as I have. And all that work I put into figuring it out, that was for nothing?"
    Somehow I missed replying to this one. That is a very good analogy.

  3. #43
    Senior Member batumi's Avatar
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    You may want to read some of those books I have, the Guardian ones. Kiersey talks about this a great deal. What are those books? I cannot recall right now.
    The ones with examples from literature that are so intriguing....

    I know that with ISTJs there is a parental aspect, and a desire to
    take you under their wing and kind of nurture you into a more conservative lifestyle.

    When communicating with an ISTJ, please do it calmly and with facts. I don't always
    succeed, but try keeping the emotions out of it.
    I lay out my plan with a list of logical conclusions and typically my ISTJ says "Hmm,
    you're right on this and this, but I am unsure about this".

    Also remember that in relationships there are stages and as I recall one is all about
    power struggles.

  4. #44
    Senior Member batumi's Avatar
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    Book -

    The Guardian - Love and Coercion among the types, by Stephen Montgomery.
    Pygmalion Project, volume 2.

    Well worth a read if you are in love with a Guardian. I think.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    I'd say ISTJs as a whole are not egoistic, they just... don't understand other people, and nor are they really willing to.
    Not "willing to" is an interesting way to put it. It almost implies that an ISTJ CAN do it as effectively as other types, but choose not to. For me it's more of a function of my own lack of skill at doing so based on past attempts, so now I don't bother doing something I know is probably not going to advance actual understanding. Note that in my experience many people of other types have as much difficulty understanding me as I do them. They just seem to attempt more often than I do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    According to my own experience, there's no way you could ever convince an ISTJ (s)he's wrong, but that doesn't mean (s)he's utterly selfish and self-centered.
    This one's true, although for me it isn't that I know everything as much as it is that I don't usually say anything. So when I do actually make a comment, it's because I'm as certain as I can be on the accuracy. Although most people seem to take it as "everytime you speak you think you're right" which is probably true. Of course, of the last 100 topics that were spoken about I only spoke up twice, which for most people seems to mean "you think you're right on 100% of the topics" as opposed to what is actually happening which is "I think I'm right about 100% of the topics when I actually speak about them". Hope I actually made that clear.
    That's Mr Vulcan to you

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by OregonENFP View Post
    You said I must communicate in BLUNT TERMS. I do this and I think this is sometimes where we get in the original arguments because I will say that I feel hurt when he says ...Blank... and he will sometimes get upset because he feels attacked.
    I don't know you've asked or not but have you asked him why he gets upset in those cases? I just bring that up because I've found that people have ascribed incorrect motivations to my actions often, especially in relationships. If you have asked and he said gave that answer, please disregard this paragraph...


    Quote Originally Posted by OregonENFP View Post
    ...
    He likes to ask me if I will do what he says.
    ...
    Sometimes.... we argue because he's gotten frustrated at my lack of 'jumping when he says jump' when I frankly don't find it necessary to do so. For example, when planning a trip he wanted me to rent the hotel in a very quiet town with TONS of rooms everywhere and no events coming up and every hotel in town had hundreds of avail rooms RIGHT THAT SECOND literally weeks before. I mean, he wanted it done YESTERDAY. I sort of didn't take this very seriously and did it at my own speed which was nearly right before we were going to go. OMG, he flipped out. I learned my lesson with that one. It's things like this that gets him super upset. When I don't see the urgency in the timing of things the way he does. To him, everything needs to be planned and discussed wayyy ahead of time.
    I know someone who does this as well. For me, it's sort of like "To hell with all of that BS you're currently doing...you need to drop all of that kiddie stuff and get to my thing I need done NOW!" That does get annoying. I've never dated anyone who did that though, and the person I'm thinking of is an ENTJ.

    But if he is an ISTJ, I'd think the most effective thing to do would be to ask why it must be done now, and if it were done in a week (and you're booking something to be done in July for example) what would be the negative consequences. If he can't come up with any, he'll likely concede the time. "Just because" doesn't tend to go over well with us so you can use that to your advantage here. I'd suspect it would be because he thinks if you wait you'll NEVER do it or some other reason that isn't being made clear. It could be he just wants it done early, in which case it could be a matter of habit or upbringing or something. Another result of doing this is you'll likely feel better because if he does give you a reason, you'll feel better as you'll know the motivation behind his seemingly incomprehensible actions.
    That's Mr Vulcan to you

  7. #47
    Senior Member Shadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jade View Post
    This one's true, although for me it isn't that I know everything as much as it is that I don't usually say anything. So when I do actually make a comment, it's because I'm as certain as I can be on the accuracy. Although most people seem to take it as "everytime you speak you think you're right" which is probably true. Of course, of the last 100 topics that were spoken about I only spoke up twice, which for most people seems to mean "you think you're right on 100% of the topics" as opposed to what is actually happening which is "I think I'm right about 100% of the topics when I actually speak about them". Hope I actually made that clear.
    +1
    Same with me, and in seminars at uni the same idea holds. I've been told by one of my professors that I should talk more because whenever I do my ideas are really good. The point is that I know they're good, which is why on those occasions I decided to speak. If I feel the slightest doubt, I'd rather not bother. I know that's not how you're supposed to play it... but it works.

    In arguments if I'm insisting that I'm right on something it's because I know I'm right. Truly. If there was any doubt there would never have been an argument and even if at first I questioned what you were saying, if I'm not sure of my position then I'll let it go because there's no point expending energy arguing otherwise.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jade View Post
    Not "willing to" is an interesting way to put it. It almost implies that an ISTJ CAN do it as effectively as other types, but choose not to. For me it's more of a function of my own lack of skill at doing so based on past attempts, so now I don't bother doing something I know is probably not going to advance actual understanding. Note that in my experience many people of other types have as much difficulty understanding me as I do them. They just seem to attempt more often than I do.



    This one's true, although for me it isn't that I know everything as much as it is that I don't usually say anything. So when I do actually make a comment, it's because I'm as certain as I can be on the accuracy. Although most people seem to take it as "everytime you speak you think you're right" which is probably true. Of course, of the last 100 topics that were spoken about I only spoke up twice, which for most people seems to mean "you think you're right on 100% of the topics" as opposed to what is actually happening which is "I think I'm right about 100% of the topics when I actually speak about them". Hope I actually made that clear.
    These posts struck a chord with me - especially the "not willing" point referenced. I never have tried to understand others or their motivations because - apart from being humans - there is no common reference point that I could understand the experiences of others. We are all individuals, and trying to see the world through another's perspective will ultimately lead to interjecting my own experiences/biases into something that I cannot share - because it isn't mine. Can anyone truly understand how another feels? How that person experienced their life as they lived it? How those experiences shaped their feelings they have at this moment? I understand that when someone says "I know how you feel" it's (usually) meant as solace and comfort. I just can't get past the thought that it's not (literally) true.

    As far as controlling the lives of others, I consciously avoid trying to interject my will (or even opinions) onto others. If I'm with a group that is doing something I don't agree with I just walk away from the situation. It's not a condemnation of them, just an affirmation of what I desire is different from others - and there's nothing wrong with that.

    As far as whether ISTJ's are egoistical, I'd admit that my decisions are based on my self and not others, but I wouldn't push them on anyone either.
    ...doesn't work or play well with others...

  9. #49
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    The only solution to an xSTJ problem is a shotgun...

    I kid! I kid!

  10. #50
    Perfect Gentleman! =D d@v3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unique View Post
    The only solution to an xSTJ problem is a shotgun...

    I kid! I kid!


    I challenge thee to a duel! Uh... a spreadsheet duel that is!
    Freedom Isn't Free. [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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