[MBTI General] ISTP/ISTJ Differences

[raz]

One thing to look at is internal judging vs external judging. Do you internalize before you act? or act before you internalize. I think that is the key to J vs P. Js are Te/Fe before Ti/Fi. So they act, then think. Ps are Fi/Ti before Fe/Te so they think before they act.

Erm. No. That leads toward Introvert vs. Extravert. Extraverts act more than think, and it's vice versa with introverts. You're on the right track, but it's thought of in a different way. ISTPs think on the go. They create their own rules for how something is done and dissect things internally rather than follow the external ruleset that extraverted thinking would prefer. Ti is meant as a perceptual function in that manner, although it's a judging function. Because ISTPs approach life with Extraverted Sensing, they adjust to the world around them in terms of what their senses bring back. In doing this, they use Introverted Thinking to "take things apart" per se as they're adjusting. A good analogy is basketball. Not every ISTP is going to like basketball, but the way that the sport requires on the fly thinking attracts xSTPs.

It's like, TJs follow rules and TPs make rules. It's a little confusing.

 

[Poki]

Erm. No. That leads toward Introvert vs. Extravert. Extraverts act more than think, and it's vice versa with introverts. You're on the right track, but it's thought of in a different way. ISTPs think on the go. They create their own rules for how something is done and dissect things internally rather than follow the external ruleset that extraverted thinking would prefer. Ti is meant as a perceptual function in that manner, although it's a judging function. Because ISTPs approach life with Extraverted Sensing, they adjust to the world around them in terms of what their senses bring back. In doing this, they use Introverted Thinking to "take things apart" per se as they're adjusting. A good analogy is basketball. Not every ISTP is going to like basketball, but the way that the sport requires on the fly thinking attracts xSTPs.

It's like, TJs follow rules and TPs make rules. It's a little confusing.

Not extreme as introvert on acting first. TJs folow rules, SPs make them. A ISTJ will jump on a rule faster. They will act and then see what happens. If it doesnt go right they question the rule, a SP will first understand the rule and then act. If it doesnt go right we bend the rule to fit because we understand the reason behind the rule.

 

[phoenity]

My wife is late to everything and is J, but you wont hear the end of it if your late. Why was he upset? That makes all the difference in the world. If you wanted to do the running jogging, etc and his late caused you not to would you say something and would he hear the end of it?

No, I wouldn't. Because I know how hypocritical I would sound if I did, and I hate being hypocritical.

Me, I know better. I try to let other people affect what I want to do as little as possible.

He wasn't really upset. He just gives me shit for it because he can.

I know he's J because he likes to set specific times to do things, even when it's something as simple as meeting up just to chill and do nothing. He's very specific and orderly.

Being P, I like to keep my options open. That way I don't feel obligated if I get carried away while in the pool and happen to arrive later.

 

[NewEra]

My cousin is ISTP. He doesn't talk much, and fits the Ti/Se to a tee (no pun intended).

 

[Poki]

I am extremely quiet. I also spend alot of time figuring things out. My free time is spent searching websites trying to figure out how everything works together. I am a computer nerd, I have done an engine swap and completely rewired and programmed a standalone fuel/ignition management system, I can build a shed or anything with minimal planning, I have a degree in electronics. Everything is pretty much done in my head.

 

["?"]

I think the descriptions of ISTP/ISTJ are messed up and the fact that there are 2 types of ISTP shows that its wrong.

I can appreciate that Poki, but is that actually wrong? I think that if Myers-Briggs considered the same for other types then it would mean that "Gifts Differing" was writtent too vague. I don't recall any other descriptions in the book alluding to there being two distinct types? I think that all SP types have some vagueness in them, which is why Keirsey immediately saw the difference between SPs and SJs.

 

["?"]

My cousin is ISTP. He doesn't talk much, and fits the Ti/Se to a tee (no pun intended).

So based on Myers-Briggs’ assertion that there are two types of ISTP, I wonder which one that your cousin fits to a tee, the mechanical or non-mechanical ISTP? Berens/Nardi says that the Ti/Ni, Se/Te, Se/Ne functions are easy to mistype, and that of all the types, ISTPs have more in common with INTJs (Ti-Se=Ni-Te) and INTPs (Ti-Se=Ti-Ne). I have been researching more on what “Gifts Differing” meant when making the distinction between the non-mechanical/mechanical. I can only surmise that one preferring Ti-Se as their core functions will be ISTP regardless, similar to the enneagram 6 being phobic/counter-phobic. There remains one type with two sub-types.

As stated in my previous post, I don’t recall the book claiming this with any other type, although Berens/Nardi also says that Ne/Fe looks similar which could imply that INTPs may be the same in resembling INFJ (Ti-Ne=Ni-Fe). However this does contradict Jung’s principle when he says:

Naturally only those functions can appear as auxiliary whose nature is not opposed to the leading function. For instance, feeling can never act as the second function by the side of thinking, because its nature stands in too strong a contrast to thinking. Thinking, if it is to be real thinking and true to its own principle, must scrupulously exclude feeling. This, of course, does not exclude the fact that individuals certainly exist in whom thinking and feeling stand upon the same [p. 515] level, whereby both have equal motive power in con~sdousness. But, in such a case, there is also no question of a differentiated type, but merely of a relatively undeveloped thinking and feeling. Uniform consciousness and unconsciousness of functions is, therefore, a distinguishing mark of a primitive mentality.

This would seem to imply that any similarity between INTP and INFJ is superficial, however based on this principle it may also negate Ti-Se/Ni-Te having too great a similarity although Jung never says that Ti-Te cannot follow one another.

 

[Eagle]

What's wrong with adrenaline? Adrenaline rushes can be fun.
Live for the moment as it's happening within a precisely detailed plan.
I love sports. I like rock climbing and rappelling, biking and hiking, paintball and air soft, etc. Some of those when you do them the adrenaline rush is amazing. I don't live for that rush, but it's fun anyway.

I never wonder what type I am. I know I am an ISTJ. That doesn't mean I can't adapt change and enjoy what is happening.

 

[Poki]

I can appreciate that Poki, but is that actually wrong? I think that if Myers-Briggs considered the same for other types then it would mean that "Gifts Differing" was writtent too vague. I don't recall any other descriptions in the book alluding to there being two distinct types? I think that all SP types have some vagueness in them, which is why Keirsey immediately saw the difference between SPs and SJs.

To me vaugness means the types are not understood enough. Fi is an internal feeling judging. That means things that are past through this are judged on how you feel about something. Fe is an external feeling judging which means it is based on how we think others will feel. When we talk about immature and mature in regards to Fe we are not talking thinking about others or not, we are talking about how well we can judge what others are feeling. For an inferior we have to know the person really well for our Fe to shine. Fi is when we dont really know how we feel. This is why an ISTJ has to step back and see how he really feels. ISTP and Fe causes us to step back and try to figure out how the other person feels. We naturally analyze people to figure out what they want and need. This is the goal of the Ti/Fe combination.

 

[NewEra]

What's wrong with adrenaline? Adrenaline rushes can be fun.
Live for the moment as it's happening within a precisely detailed plan.
I love sports. I like rock climbing and rappelling, biking and hiking, paintball and air soft, etc. Some of those when you do them the adrenaline rush is amazing. I don't live for that rush, but it's fun anyway.

I never wonder what type I am. I know I am an ISTJ. That doesn't mean I can't adapt change and enjoy what is happening.

Agreed. I love adrenaline rushes sometimes but other times I don't. A lot of this stuff applies to me sometimes and other times it doesn't.

 

[01011010]

These two are like night and day.

 

[raz]

I'm pretty sure a guy that works in receiving in my store is an ISTP. He's pretty cool and I think we can get each other a lot because of the IST sharing, but the J/P difference is like night and day, yeah. He's so much more laid back and go with the flow, great with tools and mechanical things. He helps making repairs around the store, lifting heavy things, etc.

Another friend of mine from World of Warcraft, he tested once as ISTP. He and I got along really well also. He knows a lot about a bunch of random crap and is always trying new things. He's one of the people that tells me the most to stop over-analyzing and reading into things too much.

 

["?"]

To me vaugness means the types are not understood enough.

And that may be the case. SPs may have been better suited to remain in Myers' temperament pattern as ST/SF. However as they are, you can read most descriptions and find where at least the ESTP is dubbed a chameleon, ISTP enigmatic (hence my nickname) and ISFPs saying how much they like to be different everyday. They are mercurial and hard to define. Nevertheless Myers-Briggs has implied two types of ISTP (those of mechanical interest and those that are not). I am not sure vagueness fits in this instance circumstance or Myers-Briggs merely not delving further into their assertion.

 

["?"]

I'm pretty sure a guy that works in receiving in my store is an ISTP. He's pretty cool and I think we can get each other a lot because of the IST sharing, but the J/P difference is like night and day, yeah. He's so much more laid back and go with the flow, great with tools and mechanical things. He helps making repairs around the store, lifting heavy things, etc.

Your latter example is unquestioned since the person at least had tested as ISTP at one point, but in this example Raz, are you looking at his habits and labeling him based on what you know about type? My being laid back is in the eye of the beholder, similar to people knowing me superficially would consider me extraverted. I shared an example elsewhere about a former secretary taking the test for me and considered me ESTJ. I understand why she believed that based on her perception and where she was standing to make that call. Even my family members would consider me some form of J type. Granted your first example may indeed be ISTP, however there are those of us on this forum who would be dubbed something other than ISTP if the person limits their consideration to this type being mechanically inclined and adrenaline junkies.

 

[Poki]

Your latter example is unquestioned since the person at least had tested as ISTP at one point, but in this example Raz, are you looking at his habits and labeling him based on what you know about type? My being laid back is in the eye of the beholder, similar to people knowing me superficially would consider me extraverted. I shared an example elsewhere about a former secretary taking the test for me and considered me ESTJ. I understand why she believed that based on her perception and where she was standing to make that call. Even my family members would consider me some form of J type. Granted your first example may indeed be ISTP, however there are those of us on this forum who would be dubbed something other than ISTP if the person limits their consideration to this type being mechanically inclined and adrenaline junkies.

Its hard to go by apparent behaviour. Dominant Ti has nothing to do with doing or being active so basing something off of that behaviour is misleading. A dominant Ti type should be based off the fact that they spend alot of time analyzing and figuring things out internally. I prefer to sit back and analyze. Sift through the data and facts and figure things out. I am always changing things, trying new things, experimenting. I will change one thing and see what changes. My goal and drive is understanding how it works. Throw a kink in what I am doing and I see it as something new, an experiment. Dominant Ti types do not get told they are over-analyzing because all analyzing is done in their head. People just think we are shallow or aloof. They dont realize what is going on in our heads.

 

[Hunter]

-popsin- Well, I know that I'm some sort of cross between an ISTJ and ISTP. Heh, I think I have a split personality. XD Like, some people get around me and think that I'm extremely extroverted and just wacky, and out there...and they walk away with that view of me. And then other people see me extremely quiet, serious, and...broody, I spose. Those are just the two moods that I jump between constantly so people's views of me come out completely different. So if people went by my "apparent" behavior, no one would get it right.

 

[/DG/]

-popsin- Well, I know that I'm some sort of cross between an ISTJ and ISTP. Heh, I think I have a split personality. XD Like, some people get around me and think that I'm extremely extroverted and just wacky, and out there...and they walk away with that view of me. And then other people see me extremely quiet, serious, and...broody, I spose. Those are just the two moods that I jump between constantly so people's views of me come out completely different. So if people went by my "apparent" behavior, no one would get it right.

Sometimes I do a little bit of this. Occasionally, I conform my personality to those around me. lol

 

[Hunter]

Heh, I think I do it alot. Like, I get around those extremely quiet and serious people..and I tend to go berserk. This one friend of mine thinks I'm nuts...but she enjoys being around me cause I get her to do all sorts of weird stuff with me. I don't think she's used to being around crazy people. XD And she has never seen me serious. Never. I get around her and like a switch flips in my mind and all notions of a sober, serious mindset no longer exist.

And then when I get around those real social butterfly types, the complete opposite happens. That is, unless I've been around that person for a really long time...I know that right there is in part, my introversion.

 

[Shadow]

Heh, I think I do it alot. Like, I get around those extremely quiet and serious people..and I tend to go berserk. This one friend of mine thinks I'm nuts...but she enjoys being around me cause I get her to do all sorts of weird stuff with me. I don't think she's used to being around crazy people. XD And she has never seen me serious. Never. I get around her and like a switch flips in my mind and all notions of a sober, serious mindset no longer exist.

And then when I get around those real social butterfly types, the complete opposite happens. That is, unless I've been around that person for a really long time...I know that right there is in part, my introversion.

Actually, that happens with me too! I'm the quiet, serious one with my flatmates who are all, like, the 'totally cool international party set', but when I'm with my closest group of friends (mainly slightly geeky people who like to talk about current affairs and geeky stuff, like me) I'm suddenly some kind of major extravert who loves to be the centre of attention. It's not just down to relative extraversion compared to the people I'm with either.

 

[Eagle]

-popsin- Well, I know that I'm some sort of cross between an ISTJ and ISTP. Heh, I think I have a split personality. XD Like, some people get around me and think that I'm extremely extroverted and just wacky, and out there...and they walk away with that view of me. And then other people see me extremely quiet, serious, and...broody, I spose. Those are just the two moods that I jump between constantly so people's views of me come out completely different. So if people went by my "apparent" behavior, no one would get it right.

We have different persona's for each situation we are in. The word persona means mask. Each of these masks makes up apart of who we are. So, to find out exactly who we are someone needs to earn our trust, take lots of "snapshots," and make a collage. How's that for a metaphor?