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  1. #21
    Let's make this showy! raz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by poki View Post
    One thing to look at is internal judging vs external judging. Do you internalize before you act? or act before you internalize. I think that is the key to J vs P. Js are Te/Fe before Ti/Fi. So they act, then think. Ps are Fi/Ti before Fe/Te so they think before they act.
    Erm. No. That leads toward Introvert vs. Extravert. Extraverts act more than think, and it's vice versa with introverts. You're on the right track, but it's thought of in a different way. ISTPs think on the go. They create their own rules for how something is done and dissect things internally rather than follow the external ruleset that extraverted thinking would prefer. Ti is meant as a perceptual function in that manner, although it's a judging function. Because ISTPs approach life with Extraverted Sensing, they adjust to the world around them in terms of what their senses bring back. In doing this, they use Introverted Thinking to "take things apart" per se as they're adjusting. A good analogy is basketball. Not every ISTP is going to like basketball, but the way that the sport requires on the fly thinking attracts xSTPs.

    It's like, TJs follow rules and TPs make rules. It's a little confusing.


  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by raz View Post
    Erm. No. That leads toward Introvert vs. Extravert. Extraverts act more than think, and it's vice versa with introverts. You're on the right track, but it's thought of in a different way. ISTPs think on the go. They create their own rules for how something is done and dissect things internally rather than follow the external ruleset that extraverted thinking would prefer. Ti is meant as a perceptual function in that manner, although it's a judging function. Because ISTPs approach life with Extraverted Sensing, they adjust to the world around them in terms of what their senses bring back. In doing this, they use Introverted Thinking to "take things apart" per se as they're adjusting. A good analogy is basketball. Not every ISTP is going to like basketball, but the way that the sport requires on the fly thinking attracts xSTPs.

    It's like, TJs follow rules and TPs make rules. It's a little confusing.
    Not extreme as introvert on acting first. TJs folow rules, SPs make them. A ISTJ will jump on a rule faster. They will act and then see what happens. If it doesnt go right they question the rule, a SP will first understand the rule and then act. If it doesnt go right we bend the rule to fit because we understand the reason behind the rule.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by poki View Post
    My wife is late to everything and is J, but you wont hear the end of it if your late. Why was he upset? That makes all the difference in the world. If you wanted to do the running jogging, etc and his late caused you not to would you say something and would he hear the end of it?
    No, I wouldn't. Because I know how hypocritical I would sound if I did, and I hate being hypocritical.

    Me, I know better. I try to let other people affect what I want to do as little as possible.

    He wasn't really upset. He just gives me shit for it because he can.

    I know he's J because he likes to set specific times to do things, even when it's something as simple as meeting up just to chill and do nothing. He's very specific and orderly.

    Being P, I like to keep my options open. That way I don't feel obligated if I get carried away while in the pool and happen to arrive later.

  4. #24
    Senior Member NewEra's Avatar
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    My cousin is ISTP. He doesn't talk much, and fits the Ti/Se to a tee (no pun intended).

  5. #25
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    I am extremely quiet. I also spend alot of time figuring things out. My free time is spent searching websites trying to figure out how everything works together. I am a computer nerd, I have done an engine swap and completely rewired and programmed a standalone fuel/ignition management system, I can build a shed or anything with minimal planning, I have a degree in electronics. Everything is pretty much done in my head.

  6. #26
    Senior Member "?"'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by poki View Post
    I think the descriptions of ISTP/ISTJ are messed up and the fact that there are 2 types of ISTP shows that its wrong.
    I can appreciate that Poki, but is that actually wrong? I think that if Myers-Briggs considered the same for other types then it would mean that "Gifts Differing" was writtent too vague. I don't recall any other descriptions in the book alluding to there being two distinct types? I think that all SP types have some vagueness in them, which is why Keirsey immediately saw the difference between SPs and SJs.

  7. #27
    Senior Member "?"'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheChosenOne View Post
    My cousin is ISTP. He doesn't talk much, and fits the Ti/Se to a tee (no pun intended).
    So based on Myers-Briggs’ assertion that there are two types of ISTP, I wonder which one that your cousin fits to a tee, the mechanical or non-mechanical ISTP? Berens/Nardi says that the Ti/Ni, Se/Te, Se/Ne functions are easy to mistype, and that of all the types, ISTPs have more in common with INTJs (Ti-Se=Ni-Te) and INTPs (Ti-Se=Ti-Ne). I have been researching more on what “Gifts Differing” meant when making the distinction between the non-mechanical/mechanical. I can only surmise that one preferring Ti-Se as their core functions will be ISTP regardless, similar to the enneagram 6 being phobic/counter-phobic. There remains one type with two sub-types.

    As stated in my previous post, I don’t recall the book claiming this with any other type, although Berens/Nardi also says that Ne/Fe looks similar which could imply that INTPs may be the same in resembling INFJ (Ti-Ne=Ni-Fe). However this does contradict Jung’s principle when he says:
    Naturally only those functions can appear as auxiliary whose nature is not opposed to the leading function. For instance, feeling can never act as the second function by the side of thinking, because its nature stands in too strong a contrast to thinking. Thinking, if it is to be real thinking and true to its own principle, must scrupulously exclude feeling. This, of course, does not exclude the fact that individuals certainly exist in whom thinking and feeling stand upon the same [p. 515] level, whereby both have equal motive power in con~sdousness. But, in such a case, there is also no question of a differentiated type, but merely of a relatively undeveloped thinking and feeling. Uniform consciousness and unconsciousness of functions is, therefore, a distinguishing mark of a primitive mentality.
    This would seem to imply that any similarity between INTP and INFJ is superficial, however based on this principle it may also negate Ti-Se/Ni-Te having too great a similarity although Jung never says that Ti-Te cannot follow one another.

  8. #28
    Senior Member Eagle's Avatar
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    What's wrong with adrenaline? Adrenaline rushes can be fun.
    Live for the moment as it's happening within a precisely detailed plan.
    I love sports. I like rock climbing and rappelling, biking and hiking, paintball and air soft, etc. Some of those when you do them the adrenaline rush is amazing. I don't live for that rush, but it's fun anyway.

    I never wonder what type I am. I know I am an ISTJ. That doesn't mean I can't adapt change and enjoy what is happening.
    - Caleb

    "I am what I need to be..."

    "Nemo me impune lacessit - No one provokes me with impunity."

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by "?" View Post
    I can appreciate that Poki, but is that actually wrong? I think that if Myers-Briggs considered the same for other types then it would mean that "Gifts Differing" was writtent too vague. I don't recall any other descriptions in the book alluding to there being two distinct types? I think that all SP types have some vagueness in them, which is why Keirsey immediately saw the difference between SPs and SJs.
    To me vaugness means the types are not understood enough. Fi is an internal feeling judging. That means things that are past through this are judged on how you feel about something. Fe is an external feeling judging which means it is based on how we think others will feel. When we talk about immature and mature in regards to Fe we are not talking thinking about others or not, we are talking about how well we can judge what others are feeling. For an inferior we have to know the person really well for our Fe to shine. Fi is when we dont really know how we feel. This is why an ISTJ has to step back and see how he really feels. ISTP and Fe causes us to step back and try to figure out how the other person feels. We naturally analyze people to figure out what they want and need. This is the goal of the Ti/Fe combination.

  10. #30
    Senior Member NewEra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eagle View Post
    What's wrong with adrenaline? Adrenaline rushes can be fun.
    Live for the moment as it's happening within a precisely detailed plan.
    I love sports. I like rock climbing and rappelling, biking and hiking, paintball and air soft, etc. Some of those when you do them the adrenaline rush is amazing. I don't live for that rush, but it's fun anyway.

    I never wonder what type I am. I know I am an ISTJ. That doesn't mean I can't adapt change and enjoy what is happening.
    Agreed. I love adrenaline rushes sometimes but other times I don't. A lot of this stuff applies to me sometimes and other times it doesn't.

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