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  1. #31
    Perfect Gentleman! =D d@v3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackCat View Post
    Dave this is what I was referring to. To change someone's values, it's very hard, and when you do this it usually just produces anger from the person you are trying to change. The person will be stubborn about it the whole time too. I was asking why you would want to change something about someone's values.
    I don't know, I personally don't try to change people's values. I accept them for who they are. The people who try to do the changing are the ESTJ's in my opinion. I mean, again, not all of them try to change others, it just depends on the individual.

    I also think that the people who try to change others are themselves insecure about something. Possibly one of their own character traits. Therefore, the trait they lack or feel is corrupt, they will try to force it to develop in the other person. Perhaps I'm not explaining it properly.

  2. #32
    Striving for balance Little Linguist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by d@v3 View Post
    ^ And here I thought you were different LL, possibly a sweet little innocent ENFP.... but Peguy was right!!!

    This just furthers my suspicons, there is no such thing as an ENFP with good intentions!!

    At least, not when it comes to SJ's!
    Awwwwww c'mon can't you take a little joke? I am sweet and innocent, really!!!!

    Wait a minute, what did he say about me???
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  3. #33
    Shaman BlackCat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by d@v3 View Post
    I don't know, I personally don't try to change people's values. I accept them for who they are. The people who try to do the changing are the ESTJ's in my opinion. I mean, again, not all of them try to change others, it just depends on the individual.

    I also think that the people who try to change others are themselves insecure about something. Possibly one of their own character traits. Therefore, the trait they lack or feel is corrupt, they will try to force it to develop in the other person. Perhaps I'm not explaining it properly.
    You make perfect sense to me Dave, no worries. It's these people that try to change me that get the worst side of me.

    So they are insecure about themselves and try to change me to be on their level of insecurity, therefore making them feel a false sense of security. This seems like an unhealthy SJ trait, since all of them are about security and things being in order. I see how this could manifest itself into manipulating others into being incorrect along with you to feel secure.

    EDIT: Just from this thread I understand why you have a bunch of ENFPs picking on you all the time Dave.
    () 9w8-3w4-7w6 tritype.

    sCueI (primary Inquisition)

  4. #34
    Perfect Gentleman! =D d@v3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackCat View Post
    You make perfect sense to me Dave, no worries. It's these people that try to change me that get the worst side of me.

    So they are insecure about themselves and try to change me to be on their level of insecurity, therefore making them feel a false sense of security. This seems like an unhealthy SJ trait, since all of them are about security and things being in order. I see how this could manifest itself into manipulating others into being incorrect along with you to feel secure.

    EDIT: Just from this thread I understand why you have a bunch of ENFPs picking on you all the time Dave.
    Yes, that's pretty much what I meant. They are trying to compensate for their own insecurities. It is DEFINITLEY an unhealthy SJ trait. Your better off just steering clear of those individuals. On the other hand, don't mistake them trying to help you as them trying to manipulate you. There is a fine line between the two and sometimes it's hard to see clearly.

    And what is with your Edit? Why do you think they are always harassing me!?

  5. #35
    Senior Member Shadow's Avatar
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    I like these 2 responses, because they realise that SJs don't nag just for the sake of nagging. We don't *like* confrontation, but sometimes someone has to say something or nothing changes and the resentment just boils away under the surface waiting to explode over something completely irrelevant. Mostly, we just want acknowledgement that something's a problem.:

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Wow, I would say not completely. I have found to be most effective an acknowlegement of the "issue" followed by a promise to think about solutions to it.

    For example:

    SJ: How come no one puts stuff away? Why am I the only person who does anything around here?

    Me: I hear what you are saying - that's frustrating. Let's think about how we can fix this.

    I think an SJ just needs reassurance that someone cares (or wants to understand) about what bothers them and make an effort to try to facilitate a fix.

    Hope that helps!
    Quote Originally Posted by BlackCat View Post
    I hang out/talk with a lot of ISTJs. I realize that mostly the "nag" you get, while annoying, is their way of expressing a fear that they have toward something. So I usually get to the bottom of this fear and solve the reason why it is bothering them, if that makes sense. Sometimes I will ask literally "what are you afraid of?" like if they keep being about a bunch of little things that add up into a fear of one thing happening.

    EDIT: I'd like to add that they actually nag because they appear to be afraid of failure (when it is something they want help with), and they want your help. It also seems that if it's something they just want you to do (like a chore) then it's because they don't have a "do it later" attitude.

    Not so sure about this one though. Fine if you want to make a bad enemy, but not if you want to still be able to come into contact with them:

    Quote Originally Posted by shortnsweet View Post
    The best thing that works with me is a very direct and concrete approach.

    "I don't want to talk about this. It is obviously very important to you but it is not a priority for me at all. I need to move on to other things. End of story."


    (depends on the situation and relatiionship with the person, but this is a general approach that usually works for me.)
    The bit in bold is really grating. Basically all you're saying is, "I don't respect you. I think you're shit and your values are shit. To me you are like a speck of mud under my boot."
    Respect is important to SJs.
    If someone disrespects me like this I don't want to know about them anymore, and they'll lose any respect I had for them, that's for sure.

  6. #36
    Striving for balance Little Linguist's Avatar
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    Awww c'mon you know you luv us ENFPs That's the *real* reason why you nag us so much. It's your way of showing affection, just like we use pillow fights and poke you with pencils
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  7. #37
    Shaman BlackCat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow View Post
    Not so sure about this one though. Fine if you want to make a bad enemy, but not if you want to still be able to come into contact with them:
    If it's something really bothering them then I will ask what they are afraid of, but I usually keep it to myself. I should have mentioned that. With my knowing what they are afraid of I can realize the motives behind their actions and know how to act to make them feel better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Little Linguist View Post
    ...That's the *real* reason why you nag us so much. It's your way of showing affection...
    What do you perceive is his way of showing affection?
    Last edited by BlackCat; 03-02-2009 at 05:45 PM. Reason: grammar
    () 9w8-3w4-7w6 tritype.

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  8. #38
    Senior Member King sns's Avatar
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    Well, like I said, this would just be assuming that the person is nagging all the time about the same stuff, as a habit. (Same is true for non sj's who nag.) Someone keeps talking about something then i'll try to talk it through with them but if it gets me to my wits end, (since nagging is a huge pet-peeve of mine), then that's the response they are going to get. I figure I don't really have time to talk about the same thing over and over again so thats where it lands me. If theres a healthy, nice SJ (or anyone) who is just showing concern over something then they are likely to get a less attacking response, like- "I know you're concerned about this,-".

    The people who get the other response are people who have some kind of a relationship with me, too, don't often see me angry. Nagging is likely to get me to that angry point faster than anything else and so I smother the nagging with a very blunt, exasperated response that they're not used to and the back off. (Just thought i'd explain ) Some people just nag as a bad habit rather than a quirk or a personality trait. Its a control thing and I can't stand it!

  9. #39
    Senior Member Shadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackCat View Post
    If it's something really bothering them then I will ask what they are afraid of, but I usually keep it to myself. I should have mentioned that. I knowing what they are afraid of I can realize the motives behind their actions and know how to act to make them feel better.
    BlackCat, I was appreciative of what you said when I quoted you! Think you hit the nail on the head in some respects. The bit about making a 'bad enemy' was about shortnsweet's direct approach, but as she's explained it a bit more all is forgiven :

    Quote Originally Posted by shortnsweet View Post
    Well, like I said, this would just be assuming that the person is nagging all the time about the same stuff, as a habit. (Same is true for non sj's who nag.) Someone keeps talking about something then i'll try to talk it through with them but if it gets me to my wits end, (since nagging is a huge pet-peeve of mine), then that's the response they are going to get. I figure I don't really have time to talk about the same thing over and over again so thats where it lands me. If theres a healthy, nice SJ (or anyone) who is just showing concern over something then they are likely to get a less attacking response, like- "I know you're concerned about this,-".

    The people who get the other response are people who have some kind of a relationship with me, too, don't often see me angry. Nagging is likely to get me to that angry point faster than anything else and so I smother the nagging with a very blunt, exasperated response that they're not used to and the back off. (Just thought i'd explain ) Some people just nag as a bad habit rather than a quirk or a personality trait. Its a control thing and I can't stand it!

  10. #40
    Shaman BlackCat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow View Post
    BlackCat, I was appreciative of what you said when I quoted you! Think you hit the nail on the head in some respects. The bit about making a 'bad enemy' was about shortnsweet's direct approach, but as she's explained it a bit more all is forgiven :
    Oh, I didn't realize you were talking about my quote when you said you agreed with the two of them. Whaddaya know, the intuitive failed at sensing. :rolli: I get it now. But yeah, what I said is pretty much the best way to deal with any SJ in your life imo, it's worked for me every time. The only problems I've had were with dealing with ESTJs, they seemed to have this over ego problem where they wouldn't admit they were afraid of anything (I didn't ask them literally, they just acted like they had no weakness) and what resulted from that was me being torn to pieces (not literally).
    () 9w8-3w4-7w6 tritype.

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