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[ESTJ] Please help me find the ESTJ soft spot!

B

beyondaurora

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A friend of mine has a situation with her father, an ESTJ, who is very set in a traditional, religious mindset.

My friend is in her early twenties, a good student, and has never dated. However, recently she met someone and has fallen in love. Their relationship is completely pure - there has been absolutely no physical intimacy (not even a kiss!).

Because she desires her father's approval, she told him yesterday about the person and that she is very serious about starting a relationship with him. He became so angry that he threatened her that he wouldn't talk to her until she 'came to her senses'. Her father did cut off her older sister for not obeying his rules, and although it has been years, he still does not speak with her.

Her father believes that 1) she should focus on her schooling, and 2) that the person she is interested in is tainted because he is not a virgin (she is).

She pleaded with him twice, and he won't budge. In fact, the more she brings it up, the worse the threatened consequences have been.

She and her love interest are completely devastated. They are so similar in their values and goals in life, and they feel a deep connection. But her family is her family, and so she feels she has no choice but to break off the relationship.

If you have any advice for getting through to this ESTJ father, please help!
 

Valiant

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Sounds like a complete bastard, she's better off without her father.
Maybe he is in love with his own daughter, and use religion as some kind of excuse to keep others away from her.
 

BerberElla

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My father was like that, I am the black sheep of the family now because I took a stand.

I have always hated rules though, eventually I will rebel if anyone tries to enforce them.

I think my father is an IxTJ.

She needs to accept being blacklisted and rejected by her family if she really wants to live life like it should be.
 

Amargith

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If he's up for it, have the guy meet the father. Man to man. No guarantees about the outcome however. Also, I would just date the guy without my fathers approval, even though it would hurt me bad that he didn't approve. If he repeats his threat to never talk to me, I'd remind him that I do love him and would hate for that to happen but that I'm an adult and that continuing down that road with all his loved ones will end with him being very lonely in the end.

This is not an easy situation though. Tell her good luck from me.
 

swordpath

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Yeah, in this case your friend is just going to have to branch out and do her thing. She can either A. tell her father what she feels and how she plans to pursue those feelings and then deal with the backlash or B. Go behind his back in attempts to nurture both relationships. Either way, her father's stance sounds dillusional and I don't think it should get in the way of your free-thinking, adult friend's relational pursuits.

If I had a parent like that ESTJ father... God damn.
 
B

beyondaurora

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If he's up for it, have the guy meet the father. Man to man. No guarantees about the outcome however. Also, I would just date the guy without my fathers approval, even though it would hurt me bad that he didn't approve. If he repeats his threat to never talk to me, I'd remind him that I do love him and would hate for that to happen but that I'm an adult and that continuing down that road with all his loved ones will end with him being very lonely in the end.

This is not an easy situation though. Tell her good luck from me.

Thanks, Amargith. I think this is a very mature way to approach her father, but I'm not sure that she is ready to accept the consequences. She is also concerned that she will resent the person she's interested in (he's afraid of this as well), should her father turn his back on her. And by the way, the person loves her so much that he offered to meet her father. I think they just feel like this is a hopeless situation...
 

Amargith

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And rightly so...how about she talks it over with her sister? Or has she already?
 
B

beyondaurora

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Yeah, in this case your friend is just going to have to branch out and do her thing.

My only fear is that if she makes this decision based on this relationship, and not necessarily when she is really ready to do so, she will a) ruin her relationship because of resentment and guilt, which will cause b) her to run back to her father's arms with the mentality that he was right all along.

Either way, her father's stance sounds dillusional and I don't think it should get in the way of your free-thinking, adult friend's relational pursuits.

I agree completely.
 

EcK

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try human flesh, they feed on it


My friend is in her early twenties, a good student, and has never dated. However, recently she met someone and has fallen in love. Their relationship is completely pure - there has been absolutely no physical intimacy (not even a kiss!).
Pure?
that's not pure, that's messed up.
purity is a bs used by religious zealots to keep their women 'safe'.

I wish humanity could grow up or something.
 

Amargith

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Her sister told her not to make the same mistake she has. :doh:

Mmm..that doesn't help.

And the problem is also that if the relationship for whatever reason doesn't work out, she's still out of her fathers grace and he gets to say 'I told you so'. She should be really sure this guy is worth it, or really be ok with not caring what dad thinks.

Personally, I'd tell my dad to get a life. But I have a bad relationship with my dad and I also know how much you can suffer from that (and my dad is difficult but he doesn't refuse to see me for what I've done). I'm also wondering what this ESTJ is thinking...I mean..does he honestly expect his daughter to be a 30 year old virgin some day? I guess it could be because he's scared of her grades falling if she gets too involved in the relationship. Maybe she should check if that is the real dealbreaker for him. If so, she might be able to broker a deal: if her grades drop, she doesn't see her boyfriend anymore till they're up again.

If he's just being unrealistic about the needs of a grown woman..then he should've stuck her in a nonnery when he had the chance. Also, where's the mom in all this?
 

swordpath

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My only fear is that if she makes this decision based on this relationship, and not necessarily when she is really ready to do so, she will a) ruin her relationship because of resentment and guilt, which will cause b) her to run back to her father's arms with the mentality that he was right all along.
That is cause for concern. Maybe that's when you could come in to play as a supportive friend?
 

Chris_in_Orbit

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Wait so am I to assume that this girl is still in school? Well her parents are probably paying for it right? Just let the father have his way (well let him think he is) until she is done with school.
 

simpleamazement

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I'd find a way to get out of that house. My ESTP brother found a way to get out of our house.

ESTJ's soft spot is their ego.

Say something like, "Dad you're such a great father, and I appreciate everything you do for me."

They're not really aware that they hurt people's feelings.

Be very direct with him.

What I would say or maybe even write is, "Dad, it's only only fair that I date this man. I am a hard working student, and I deserve to spend some free time with him. I will not quit school, you have my word on that. This is all that I ask for, a chance."

Signed,

Your Daughter
 

hakuna

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Would the father prefer an arranged marriage? Why did she tell her father that her boyfriend wasn’t a virgin and why does it matter!? God allowed multiple wives in the bible and I’m sure those men weren’t virgins. Solomon had 700 wives not including the concubines.

:2ar15:

I would suggest appealing to his Te. Try explaining that it’s healthy for women of her age to be dating. This could actually improve her performance in school! Maybe give examples of family friends who are successful and are also involved in relationships. Possibly give an example of when your friend has taken on an extra hobby or interest (anything really that her father thought might be distracting) that resulted in something positive. I could see the father’s Si kind of working against the situation. It seems like he’s placed her in the sweet innocent daughter archetype and while it’s true that she’ll always be his daughter she plays many other roles: student, friend, sister, and eventually girlfriend and wife. I think it’s safe to assume that he’s being honest about his personal objections. ESTJs are usually pretty straightforward people. I would suggest that the father and boyfriend meet before just giving up. If at all possible fool the father into thinking that he’s in control. Since it seems like your friend doesn’t want to deceive her father maybe they could meet and the father could arrange the setting or activity. Just make sure he thinks he’s dominant. In terms of Ne, he SHOULD be able to understand the perspective of your friend, but it seems like he’s having problems with this. Another thing to consider would be his Fi, her father probably feels hurt about the estranged daughter (even though he caused the estrangement) and feels threatened about the prospect of another man being in his daughter's life. He needs to know that he’ll always be important to your friend no matter what.

I hope the father comes to his senses.
Out of curiosity, what is your friend’s type?
 
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