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  1. #31
    IRL is not real Cimarron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sarah View Post
    I think we'd do better as a society to train children (and adults!) to freely question pointless rules, to disobey rules that shouldn't exist, but to respect the ones that exist for good reason.
    You don't think this is how it is right now?

    Your point about punishment was interesting, too.
    You can't spell "justice" without ISTJ.

  2. #32
    soft and silky sarah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cimarron View Post
    You don't think this is how it is right now?

    Your point about punishment was interesting, too.
    I think many parents still resort to capital punishment because they don't know how to discipline with logic. Too much carrot-and-stick, and not enough of helping kids develop an ability to sort out right from wrong, and understand that for every action they take, there are consequences.

    I work in a public building, and I hear many parents simply bossing their children around rather than interacting wtih them, and I also see them "disciplining" by offering rewards or punishments. I also see parents making up rules on the spot that have no reason behind them other than the convenience of the parent, which makes me think that sooner or later those kids are going to get a kick out of rebelling just to see how long they can avoid punishment.

  3. #33
    IRL is not real Cimarron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sarah View Post
    I also see parents making up rules on the spot that have no reason behind them other than the convenience of the parent, which makes me think that sooner or later those kids are going to get a kick out of rebelling just to see how long they can avoid punishment.
    Hmm, I think I've seen this, too.
    You can't spell "justice" without ISTJ.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by sarah View Post
    I think many parents still resort to capital punishment because they don't know how to discipline with logic.


    Wtf.

  5. #35
    IRL is not real Cimarron's Avatar
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    Related, but slightly different from the OP: I was reading one of Keirsey's books, and as he used the word "duty" for the 20th time, I felt he was laughing at me, snickering behind his hand at us SJs. Then I found the reason.

    Why are people so afraid of the word "duty?" Is "responsibility" better?

    Its meaning is slightly different. "Responsibility" implies it being optional, but that there are also consequences involved. If Keirsey, Myers-Briggs, et al meant this instead of "duty," then why didn't they put it? They must not have meant it.
    You can't spell "justice" without ISTJ.

  6. #36
    Let's make this showy! raz's Avatar
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    You don't like the word duty because you have a sense of duty to things you don't really care about. No, not really. Duty is a good word to keep inside your head to describe the idea. But when you speak, translate it to responsibility.


  7. #37
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    I giggle when I hear the word duty.

  8. #38
    soft and silky sarah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cimarron View Post
    Related, but slightly different from the OP: I was reading one of Keirsey's books, and as he used the word "duty" for the 20th time, I felt he was laughing at me, snickering behind his hand at us SJs. Then I found the reason.

    Why are people so afraid of the word "duty?" Is "responsibility" better?

    Its meaning is slightly different. "Responsibility" implies it being optional, but that there are also consequences involved. If Keirsey, Myers-Briggs, et al meant this instead of "duty," then why didn't they put it? They must not have meant it.
    I would think that most SJs who prefer to choose what to spend their time doing would prefer the word responsibility. "Duty" implies that you didn't have a choice but to accept responsibility for something you don't care about. "Responsibility" implies that at some point you made a conscious decision, by accepting a job, or making lifelong commitments, starting a family, etc.

    Yet ANOTHER reason why I prefer Berens' explanations over Keirsey's as far as temperament is concerned! She uses the word responsibility to describe the values of SJs rather than duty, and that seems to be a much more accurate representation of the SJs I know.

  9. #39
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sarah View Post
    I would think that most SJs who prefer to choose what to spend their time doing would prefer the word responsibility. "Duty" implies that you didn't have a choice but to accept responsibility for something you don't care about. "Responsibility" implies that at some point you made a conscious decision, by accepting a job, or making lifelong commitments, starting a family, etc.
    You make an interesting point. I often feel like "duty" is a better word, however (but not all the time). For example, I'll get mad at friends/family for "forcing" me to do things, when in truth all they did was ask me, and I felt like I had no choice. Often, the idea of saying no doesn't even occur to me. There's some other thread about SJs and obligation that goes over this far more eloquently, but I can't remember what it's called.

    EDIT: I still think you're right. It's responsibility more often than not... but it's duty sometimes too (especially in family situations).
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  10. #40
    soft and silky sarah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    You make an interesting point. I often feel like "duty" is a better word, however (but not all the time). For example, I'll get mad at friends/family for "forcing" me to do things, when in truth all they did was ask me, and I felt like I had no choice. Often, the idea of saying no doesn't even occur to me. There's some other thread about SJs and obligation that goes over this far more eloquently, but I can't remember what it's called.

    EDIT: I still think you're right. It's responsibility more often than not... but it's duty sometimes too (especially in family situations).
    I'm glad for your perspective -- it's rather hard for me to think about the preferences of SJs without projecting a bit of what I prefer into it. I panic at the word "duty," and tend to assume everyone else in the world feels the same way. But am fascinated that it strikes a positive chord in some SJs.

    I have noticed that a number of SJs I know actually enjoy being asked to take on responsibilities, even if they already have a lot on their plate. And even if they complain about being taken for granted. I wonder if it's the being- asked that feels like an honor? (In contrast to that, I only enjoy being asked to take on artistic projects, and if I can't find a way of making a project an artistic statement of my own, then I usually avoid responsibilities that aren't directly related to something I deeply value). If you can find the link to the thread about SJs and obligations, I'd be interested in reading it.

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