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  1. #21
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    This is kind-of-sort-of in response to HermeticDancer's thing about ISTJs (since I, and many INTPs, do exactly the same thing as ISTJs in that respect):

    I saw something (maybe in a Men are from Mars-style book? maybe from my INFJ mother?) with regard to fixing problems, and it was divided by gender as follows.

    Supposedly, when men tell women about an issue that bugs them, the women will essentially say "Oh, jeez, that sucks" and pat them on the shoulder or something to that effect. When women tell men about an issue, however, the male response will be an attempt to fix the problem, when the women simply wanted them to express sympathy.

    I disagree with the idea that these two behaviors are gender-specific. After all, I do the "male" thing regularly, and yet I'm not a guy. I think it's actually an F vs. T thing. (when people have relationship/emotional issues to solve, I have no idea how to approach them. Yay for inferior Fi!... not really.)
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



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  2. #22
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Yes, I agree that it's F vs T based, but since the vast majority of F's seem to be female and vice versa, that does, GENERALLY make it gender based, doesn't it? Pointing out exceptions doesn't alter the fact that the general trend is still usually true.

    It becomes complicated though, when you add into the mixture people realizing that others approach things differently. Say for example, an F I know could be upset about a problem. Does she come to me and tell me her problem because she wants sympathy, and then become frustrated when all I do is offer solutions? Or does she come to me wanting a solution, having already got enough sympathy elsewhere, because she knows I'm more solution-minded, and then becomes frustrated when I try to offer sympathy, thinking that's what she's all about?

    Likewise, as a T myself, generally it's solutions I'm after. But sometimes I need to rant, to get things off my chest, and I just want someone to listen - in that situation it can be very irritating when I go to a T friend who just attempts to explain why this and why that and suggest solutions, it makes me feel like he's on the other person's side and refusing to validate my feelings. It also feels insulting because he should know that I've already realized and thought of these things myself and I'm already on track to finding my own solutions. Right now though I'm just feeling overwhelmed and questioning whether I'm right to do this or that - values and morals being my weak point, I need to analyze my feelings and motives to make sure I'm acting with integrity.

    So... because none of us are black and white, one thing or the other but in fact, many shades of things and full of contradictions, I find it difficult to figure out sometimes how I'm supposed to respond if someone comes to me with a problem. I find that asking them solves it all - "Well, do you want help sorting it out, or do you just want to talk about it at the moment?" if they answer "No I'll get so-and-so to help me, I know it'll be alright in a week or so but it's just so frustrating right now" then I know what to do. If they say "No I'm sick of talking about it, I want to do something but I can't see any way out" - again, we're cooking on gas.
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  3. #23
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    If I need to rant, I generally save it for the internet, to be honest, And then they give me advice.

    Whenever I try to get advice in real life, people give me nothing but useless sympathy.

    I guess for optimal results, I need to switch it around, but to be honest, I'm too embarrassed to rant in real life. There's also the issue that when I rant, it's because either the obvious solutions that get offered absolutely don't work, or the solution involves something absolutely horrible, so telling me "why don't you just do X?" is no use and just makes me want to throttle them.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  4. #24
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    Yes, I agree that it's F vs T based, but since the vast majority of F's seem to be female and vice versa, that does, GENERALLY make it gender based, doesn't it? Pointing out exceptions doesn't alter the fact that the general trend is still usually true.
    Well, it's actually pretty much half and half with men... but with women, you're right. I just really don't like the whole "Women are always like this" thing when I'm an exception, or when I know someone who is. I'd rather that it be 100% true, or 100% untrue (in a perfect world...).

    So... because none of us are black and white, one thing or the other but in fact, many shades of things and full of contradictions, I find it difficult to figure out sometimes how I'm supposed to respond if someone comes to me with a problem. I find that asking them solves it all - "Well, do you want help sorting it out, or do you just want to talk about it at the moment?" if they answer "No I'll get so-and-so to help me, I know it'll be alright in a week or so but it's just so frustrating right now" then I know what to do. If they say "No I'm sick of talking about it, I want to do something but I can't see any way out" - again, we're cooking on gas.
    I think I usually do both. It's part of female society, I think, to respond the feminine way to issues... and yet my T-ness has to show through somehow! Your method seems like it would be effective, though. Do people seem okay with it when you do that, or do they get annoyed? How have the results been?
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
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    want to ask me something? go for it!

  5. #25
    Perfect Gentleman! =D d@v3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by raz1337 View Post
    I admit, I have a hard time keeping my own problems in check, but I have absolutely no problem trying to sort through another person's issues. If someone's having a problem that I feel I can fix, I jump at the opportunity.

    For example, just now in my math class, a girl was asking the teacher for help planning out her curriculum. She had spoken to advisers already, but was asking the teacher for input. I had already learned about how the curriculum planning worked on my own, and planned out my curriculum without the aid of an adviser. So, naturally, I thought I could fix her problem if I could just find out what it was.

    I kept asking her while she was talking to the teacher, but the teacher kept telling me it was between her and the student. I pulled up the classes they were talking about on the computer, and it just bothered me so much to not be able to help. I swear, regardless of how much my teacher told me to leave them alone, I kept trying to find ways back into the conversation. I just kept thinking, "LET ME FIX IT!" Eventually I had to give up, and they treated me like I knew nothing. I know I was wrong in butting in. It's just something kept making me keep trying.

    Is anyone else like that? It's why I kind of want to become an adviser at my college.
    Which makes you more mad? The fact they didn't want you to help, or, the fact they treated you like you knew nothing? It seems like the others on this thread are right, if you want to help and if you feel it is appropriate to speak up, then say something! If they refuse, leave it at that and walk away or just ignore it. If you absolutely KNOW your right you could keep pushing, but unless you show immediate results, your probably going to come off as annoying.

    I find myself similar to you Raz in that if someone has a problem, I do like to help in any way I can. However, I generally won't do so unless I know my opinion is welcome or if the consequence effects myself or a friend. [Could be the "I" in the ISTJ? ]

    I think I have the ability to show empathy AND sympathy (to close friends/family) when NEEDED- even if I really didn't mean it. Although, there is a fine line between the two, it depends on the situation. Ultimately, YOU need to decide on where to draw the line!

    Wait, does this post even make sense?
    Freedom Isn't Free. [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  6. #26
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    I agree, it's best just to ask -- "Do you want help?" It kills me to see somebody struggling with something I similarly struggled with and had to learn the hard way, so I do feel an urgent need to give advice, but at the same time, I resent it when I offer my advice and it's ignored, so I just ask first. And with fellow females, it has worked best to listen and make sympathetic noises the first time around, and then maybe a day or two later say, "I've been thinking about what you said and I think I might know a solution, if you're interested." That works pretty well.

    There's nothing better than feeling powerful and beneficent. I try hard not to be obnoxious with it, but at the same time, I do know what I know -- it's not theory, it's from experience -- so it seems a shame not to offer it.

    The bad part is, if the advice is effective, sometimes it creates a dependency and then you get people who stop thinking for themselves and come asking you to solve everything for them. I don't like that.

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