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  1. #11
    heart on fire
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zhash View Post
    You can't have any level of spirited discussion about anything because if your opinion differs from hers, she gets so rigid and judgmental. It's painful being around her because I just have to keep my mouth shut and agree.
    My sympathy to you on this issue. I have a good friend who is an ISFJ (sometimes she is more P than J, but mostly J) and we just cannot talk about politics or religion because in those areas we do not agree and it is very hard for me to keep my mouth shut and agree. So I just have to avoid the topics that we disagree on.

    There are things about her that get to me sometimes, a lack of empathy. Like if her husband has a headache, she calls him a wimp if he needs to lay down or if her dog has an itch and can't get to it, she laughs at the dog. I usually end up reaching over and scratching the darn dog's back (even though I can't stand that dog) because my empathy gets the better of me. She laughed about the girls she went to school with who were "too ugly to get dates" but most of the time she is very loving and giving. It confuses me, this hard nosed part of her that peeks out from time to time.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    As for getting along on a day-to-day basis, if there are many areas in which you and the ISFJ in question disagree, it may behoove you to stick to light topics. Another option is to use active listening with her instead of arguing back when she issues a judgment, and simply try to understand her positions (while benevolently refusing to betray your principles). I do this with my mom sometimes, who doesn't like hypotheticals at all and doesn't seem to understand the concept of playing "devil's advocate." I love her and want to get along even though there's A LOT we don't meet up on, so I sometimes just listen and barf back what she just said in other words, and try to sympathize. It takes some creativity but I've gotten quite good at being a mirror instead of a lamp to her.
    That's exactly what I do--keep it light and never, ever argue anything. She is also a childhood friend of mine and we have renewed a friendship with since we work at the same place. I do all of the above but I don't feel that I'm being honest to myself. She waits for me to agree with her about all sorts of things that I don't agree with and isn't satisfied until I nod in agreement. I feel trapped and not authentic. Being authentic and real is so important to me.

    Recently we went on a business trip together. The flight was a long one and I read the book, "Elinor Frost, A Poet's Wife". She had read the book, too. After I was finished reading the book, she asked me some questions. I think she was shocked by my response. It was clearly different than her opinion of the book. It was amazing to see--she tightened her body up, got rigid and confrontational about my opinion of the book. I thought that Elinor and Robert Frost were two complex human beings and I found their marriage very different than she did. She immediately stated that he was a ba**ard and Elinor was abused. I saw it differently. Holy Cow, talk about beating the crap out of me. So, now I keep quiet and smile and don't voice my opinions. It's like being in a cage. Unfortunately, I've been her support for the past year because her husband left her for another woman. Please forgive me God, but I'd leave her, too. He was a highly intelligent man. She slept in another bedroom for 10 years and when he knocked on her locked door to visit her, she would say, "Wait a minute, I have to get dressed"......and she can't understand why he left? I don't dare tell her the reason!

  3. #13
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zhash View Post
    That's exactly what I do--keep it light and never, ever argue anything. She is also a childhood friend of mine and we have renewed a friendship with since we work at the same place. I do all of the above but I don't feel that I'm being honest to myself. She waits for me to agree with her about all sorts of things that I don't agree with and isn't satisfied until I nod in agreement. I feel trapped and not authentic. Being authentic and real is so important to me.

    Recently we went on a business trip together. The flight was a long one and I read the book, "Elinor Frost, A Poet's Wife". She had read the book, too. After I was finished reading the book, she asked me some questions. I think she was shocked by my response. It was clearly different than her opinion of the book. It was amazing to see--she tightened her body up, got rigid and confrontational about my opinion of the book. I thought that Elinor and Robert Frost were two complex human beings and I found their marriage very different than she did. She immediately stated that he was a ba**ard and Elinor was abused. I saw it differently. Holy Cow, talk about beating the crap out of me. So, now I keep quiet and smile and don't voice my opinions. It's like being in a cage. Unfortunately, I've been her support for the past year because her husband left her for another woman. Please forgive me God, but I'd leave her, too. He was a highly intelligent man. She slept in another bedroom for 10 years and when he knocked on her locked door to visit her, she would say, "Wait a minute, I have to get dressed"......and she can't understand why he left? I don't dare tell her the reason!
    I guess you have to decide how important her friendship is to you. To me, I don't think it's essential that I share 100% of my opinions with everyone, and I don't think that's inauthentic-- it's just privacy. But it IS hard when they drag it out of you like you describe. I wouldn't want to lie then, either. But if your honesty makes her coil up and strike, then maybe you're not meant to be close with her. Sad, but perhaps you're just not compatible.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    I guess you have to decide how important her friendship is to you. To me, I don't think it's essential that I share 100% of my opinions with everyone, and I don't think that's inauthentic-- it's just privacy. But it IS hard when they drag it out of you like you describe. I wouldn't want to lie then, either. But if your honesty makes her coil up and strike, then maybe you're not meant to be close with her. Sad, but perhaps you're just not compatible.
    Thanks, Ivy. I care about her and I feel that I'm mentoring her through this terrible time in her life. It's just hard keeping my opinions to myself because as you all know, I'm opinionated. I suppose it's a good exercise for me. I just hope I don't blow a cork one of these days. Today she called and wanted to know everything I was doing the entire weekend. It's like she's becoming possessive of me. I'm the most independent person you'll ever meet and there's no way in hell that I want someone hanging all over me and telling me what to do. I'm 57 years old. I think I just won't answer the phone. Thank God for caller ID.

  5. #15
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zhash View Post
    Thanks, Ivy. I care about her and I feel that I'm mentoring her through this terrible time in her life. It's just hard keeping my opinions to myself because as you all know, I'm opinionated. I suppose it's a good exercise for me. I just hope I don't blow a cork one of these days. Today she called and wanted to know everything I was doing the entire weekend. It's like she's becoming possessive of me. I'm the most independent person you'll ever meet and there's no way in hell that I want someone hanging all over me and telling me what to do. I'm 57 years old. I think I just won't answer the phone. Thank God for caller ID.
    I hear that. Boundaries are your friend. Good luck!
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  6. #16
    Junior Member mooshenh's Avatar
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    My husband is ISFJ and neurotic as well, which seems to exasperate the SJ in him. I know from experience he is manipulative, simply won't engage in rational discussion, and is easily manipulated himself.

    If he were an acquaintance and not my husband I would resort to manipulation tactics such as LFTBIY relates. However he is not a simple acquaintance, which means to go this route would require I do this 24/7, which goes against my very nature. In Jung's writings on typology he described the introverted irrationals who become too one-sided as only coming to terms with reality when forced to confront some type of life altering consequence of their actions. I find this to be very true indeed.

    In my own case I wound up having to rent a separate living space giving me the escape needed from my husband's strange quirks and inflexibility. I do go back for spells.

    If I were you I would quietly play along with her quirks and avoid having her intrude too much into my life. Sure there are some mature ISFJs who are more balanced but this woman you describe doesn't sound like one of them. To do her any favors sounds like it could be taxing on your part. I would think you'd have to self evaluate and decide if you are up to allowing her more space in your life or not.

    Another thing that Jung wrote in there was that how we handled the one-sided unbalanced introverted irrationals has a lot to say about ourselves. I find this typical of Jung. He makes a very strong statement but leaves the interpretation open to the reader. So what do I think of this? Hmmmmm.....does allowing the SJ to carry on like this make me a doormat? ...or does standing up for myself with drastic measures make me heartless? Hard to say. I think I'm beginning to manage some semblance of balance with my particular solution. (I hope)

  7. #17
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    My sympathy to you on this issue. I have a good friend who is an ISFJ (sometimes she is more P than J, but mostly J) and we just cannot talk about politics or religion because in those areas we do not agree and it is very hard for me to keep my mouth shut and agree. So I just have to avoid the topics that we disagree on.

    There are things about her that get to me sometimes, a lack of empathy. Like if her husband has a headache, she calls him a wimp if he needs to lay down or if her dog has an itch and can't get to it, she laughs at the dog. I usually end up reaching over and scratching the darn dog's back (even though I can't stand that dog) because my empathy gets the better of me. She laughed about the girls she went to school with who were "too ugly to get dates" but most of the time she is very loving and giving. It confuses me, this hard nosed part of her that peeks out from time to time.
    I do not think she is an ISFJ.
    She is an ISTJ with a high L (L for Lie) scale.

    The L is a personality continuum for denial, accomodation and self deception.

    When a female ISTJ with a high L scale does the MBTI test she is bound to end as an ISFJ.

    As this is expected of her.
    An accomodation.

  8. #18
    Senior Member Shimpei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    I do not think she is an ISFJ.
    She is an ISTJ ...
    Ha, exactly that's what I think.

  9. #19
    Junior Member mooshenh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    I do not think she is an ISFJ.
    She is an ISTJ with a high L (L for Lie) scale.

    The L is a personality continuum for denial, accomodation and self deception.

    When a female ISTJ with a high L scale does the MBTI test she is bound to end as an ISFJ.

    As this is expected of her.
    An accomodation.
    That's funny. (crys) When I asked my husband to take the MBTI test he was all over the place. I knew he was doing it on purpose.

  10. #20
    shoshaku jushaku rivercrow's Avatar
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    Meh.

    ISFJs can be apparently irrationally stubborn.
    Who rises in the morning, looks in the mirror and says, "I think I will do something stupid today?" -- James Hollis
    If people never did silly things nothing intelligent would ever get done. -- Ludwig Wittgenstein
    Whaling is illegal in Oklahoma.

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