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  1. #1
    IRL is not real Cimarron's Avatar
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    Default Following traditions

    This is continued from a thread in another section. It had changed focus significantly, and I thought it would be useful to discuss it here:


    **"NFs come up with their Ideals on their own, whereas SJs get their Values from somewhere else."**


    The problem with this statement is that most SJs themselves do not agree with it. That's predictable; after all, society usually considers lack of independent thought a flaw. (And yet, they still expect you to follow rules. ) Is it that most SJs don't even realize they're doing it? Or could it often be much more subtle than the kind of "upholding traditions" that we're usually thinking about? Why is there a split between our theory and reality?

    Unfortunately, it doesn't help that there are many more NFs than SJs on the board, so it's hard to get a general idea of the SJ interpretation. It's hard to see something through someone else's eyes... (not whining)
    Last edited by Cimarron; 10-26-2008 at 08:52 AM. Reason: additional explanation
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    señor member colmena's Avatar
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    The abstract/concrete values are an interesting route. Loyalty/Trust/Honesty etc.

    Implicit to the environment; focused on group preservation.

    Unconscious preservation methods show strong and practical instinctual foresight.

    This sort of traditionalism is romantic to me. I also trust what evolution in a constant environment would produce.

    Although I don't believe the world's wisdom is accumulative; arts over time is indicative of this.

    I've suggested how idealism may be beneficial for innovation and adaptation, but traditionalism I would think would be preferable in adverse reality.

    Why is there a split between our theory and reality?
    Because theory rarely accounts for context evolved cultures. Logic is too simplistic.
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  3. #3
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cimarron View Post

    **"NFs come up with their Ideals on their own, whereas SJs get their Values from somewhere else."**

    The problem with this statement is that most SJs themselves do not agree with it. That's predictable; after all, society usually considers lack of independent thought a flaw. (And yet, they still expect you to follow rules. ) Is it that most SJs don't even realize they're doing it? Or could it often be much more subtle than the kind of "upholding traditions" that we're usually thinking about? Why is there a split between our theory and reality?

    Unfortunately, it doesn't help that there are many more NFs than SJs on the board, so it's hard to get a general idea of the SJ interpretation. It's hard to see something through someone else's eyes... (not whining)
    Independence in thought is a broad conceit many Ns try to sell as a redeemable commodity.

    Truth is, all thought builds from existing soil. Can't have 1 without 0, right?

    Most of the time, the N resistance to tradition is more a consequence of feeling isolated/different from those who champion it. It's a passive rejection of qualities unrelated to type distinction -- whether the N wishes to accept it or not is ultimately moot.

    Values are under constant revision. Updating ethical expectations to match prevailing cultural attitudes. A good example of this in action was the Political Correctness movement that took shape in the late 1980s/early 1990s.

    True to form, Political Correctness was a philosophical extension of the Women's Lib/Civil Rights movement of the 1960s/70s.

    Simultaneously an example of N "independence" fused neatly to S "tradition".

  4. #4
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cimarron View Post

    **"NFs come up with their Ideals on their own, whereas SJs get their Values from somewhere else."**


    The problem with this statement is that most SJs themselves do not agree with it.
    Personally I think the statement is a bit deceiving, in that all types will in some way be influenced by the environment in which they were raised. Given this, NF's will initially receive their values 'from somewhere else'. But there's a second step, in which NF's will assess those values they have received from their environment or culture, and will then reject or accept based on their own analysis (or maybe this is just me speaking for myself ;-). Or they will look outside their immediate surroundings, to other cultures or philosophies, and then mishmash various beliefs/values together to come up with a construct of their own -- and the result might very well go against prevailing cultural norms and expectations.

    I think it would be helpful to the discussion if you explain why you disagree with the statement in the OP, as an SJ, and also how you perceive yourself developing your value system, and where you did attain your values. As NF's, we might view SJ's as 'getting their values from somewhere else', or not really questioning societal values, simply because it looks that way from the outside, and that's the net result we are viewing. It's not like we can view the internal process of the SJ's though. You might be able to enlighten everyone!!
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    IRL is not real Cimarron's Avatar
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    Wow! Thank you for the very helpful comments, people. This is the kind of discussion material I was trying to squeeze out of the other thread (in the NF forum). I am going to be very busy today, but I hope to get back to this soon.
    You can't spell "justice" without ISTJ.

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    EvanTheClown (ETC) Clownmaster's Avatar
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    ironic that you get so many good answers from people who are not SJs.

    I enjoy reading this thread on the NF section, and just found this here variation of the thread. I don't really think I have any more to elaborate on the subject, but if other ideas become presented down the line, my posts here will become common.

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    Senior Member Bella's Avatar
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    I get my values from God. I know this is not seen as sophisticated or philosophical or smart, but that's how it is for me.
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    Senior Member ArbiterDewey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bella View Post
    I get my values from God. I know this is not seen as sophisticated or philosophical or smart, but that's how it is for me.
    As long as it works for you, that's perfect. The faith required is immense. For me it wouldn't work whatsoever, but I did try.
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    Senior Member Bella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArbiterDewey View Post
    As long as it works for you, that's perfect. The faith required is immense. For me it wouldn't work whatsoever, but I did try.
    Do you care to tell more?
    yesiknowimamiserablegrouchnowgoawayovmeleor

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  10. #10
    No moss growing on me Giggly's Avatar
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    I don't know if this is answering the question but the biggest reason why I like traditional values is because I have analyzed them in detail and concluded that they are what is best for not only myself but everyone around me. They are best for society as a WHOLE. I have also analyzed values based on my own individual desires or needs and concluded that, although they may benefit me greatly, they may not be the best thing for other people around me.

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