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  1. #21
    Senior Member ArbiterDewey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post
    Man -- what a disappointing derail...
    True.

    I guess I will give my opinion on following traditions to get the thread back to normal.

    I am in disagreement with the type-cast SJ "following tradition." I have taken/kept values/morals from my upbringing and short-lived religious experience, but following things always to the letter just because "that's the way it's always been," I think, is an exercise in stagnation. Refusing change for the sake of familiarity is not good/productive.

    My thoughts.
    Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent.
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    Nothing is worse than active ignorance.
    --Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

    Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
    --Isaac Asimov

  2. #22
    IRL is not real Cimarron's Avatar
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    This was a good question to ask, and I'm glad a few people already started answering it:
    Quote Originally Posted by cascademn View Post
    I think it would be helpful to the discussion if you explain why you disagree with the statement in the OP, as an SJ, and also how you perceive yourself developing your value system, and where you did attain your values.
    Part of my point in this thread is that, out of the 4 Temperaments, SJs are considered the rule-followers, and so people think they follow rules/traditions blindly, or semi-blindly. Most SJs here disagree with that, from their own personal experience and awareness.

    But really, who would admit to such a thing? It's certainly not considered a good quality in society. Independence of thought is upheld as desirable.

    So are SJs right about their own values? Or have they fooled themselves into believing they're something they really aren't?


    One interesting thing that was brought up somewhere else was "back-justification". Beliefs are often formed when a person finds justification for a set of ideas, then takes and holds those ideas as dear to them. But we've seen cases where people move in the opposite direction: they take hold of a belief first, then build a justification for it afterwards. Could this be how SJs form their values? Why do you think this is or isn't the case? (Do you think that anyone actually does this? Are those people SJs?)




    ***Note: The bold print is not yelling. I'm trying to show my main points, for those who don't want to read the whole post.
    Last edited by Cimarron; 10-27-2008 at 02:00 AM. Reason: first material section
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  3. #23
    IRL is not real Cimarron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by colmena View Post
    The abstract/concrete values are an interesting route. Loyalty/Trust/Honesty etc.

    I've suggested how idealism may be beneficial for innovation and adaptation, but traditionalism I would think would be preferable in adverse reality.
    Quote Originally Posted by colmena
    Tradition is usually confined to time and environment context, and can hamper rationale.

    Having strong yet pliable values/ideals from a wealth of different sources and cultures, along with a propensity for logic, allows one to better innovate whilst maintaining a context based conscience.
    Quote Originally Posted by Night
    Independence in thought is a broad conceit many Ns try to sell as a redeemable commodity.

    Truth is, all thought builds from existing soil. Can't have 1 without 0, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by cascademn
    Personally I think the statement is a bit deceiving, in that all types will in some way be influenced by the environment in which they were raised. Given this, NF's will initially receive their values 'from somewhere else'. But there's a second step, in which NF's will assess those values they have received from their environment or culture, and will then reject or accept based on their own analysis
    We had guessed the difference between NF Ideals and SJ Values is that SJ Values are somehow more concrete. I wasn't sure how such a thing would be possible. I figured that nearly all thought is anchored, even if partially or indirectly, to the real (physical/concrete) world...but somehow for SJs, this was more true than others? How do you make one set of Values more attached to the real world than another set (of NF Ideals, for example)? The posts above are starting to suggest ways to tell the two apart.

    There was some discussion that NF Ideals are more future-oriented, whereas SJ Values are more present-oriented. But I don't want to focus on that part of it here, unless you think it's relevant, and I think it may be an NP vs. SJ difference (not NF).


    Quote Originally Posted by cascademn
    As NF's, we might view SJ's as 'getting their values from somewhere else', or not really questioning societal values, simply because it looks that way from the outside, and that's the net result we are viewing. It's not like we can view the internal process of the SJ's though.
    This is another part of the puzzle. I'm not very good at viewing my own internal process, either. Do you think it's accurate to say that part of the reason "SJ values and tradition" are usually looked down on is because they seem like unfounded or untested assumptions? Interestingly enough, isn't a statement like "All assumptions and values should be questioned" a value itself? I don't know if it's possible to escape all assumptions...
    Last edited by Cimarron; 10-27-2008 at 01:59 AM. Reason: more quotes!
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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cimarron View Post
    This was a good question to ask, and I'm glad a few people already started answering it:

    Part of my point in this thread is that, out of the 4 Temperaments, SJs are considered the rule-followers, and so people think they follow rules/traditions blindly, or semi-blindly. Most SJs here disagree with that, from their own personal experience and awareness.

    But really, who would admit to such a thing? It's certainly not considered a good quality in society. Independence of thought is upheld as desirable.

    So are SJs right about their own values? Or have they fooled themselves into believing they're something they really aren't?


    One interesting thing that was brought up somewhere else was "back-justification". Beliefs are often formed when a person finds justification for a set of ideas, then takes and holds those ideas as dear to them. But we've seen cases where people move in the opposite direction: they take hold of a belief first, then build a justification for it afterwards. Could this be how SJs form their values? Why do you think this is or isn't the case? (Do you think that anyone actually does this? Are those people SJs?)
    I can agree with your first statement about holding onto ideas that have been proven by justification (if something works, etc.). My parents didn't (and still don't) have a car, so growing up with timetables and schedules for public transportation were a way of life. Being on time became a value in a very real sense, and still is to me even today.
    ...doesn't work or play well with others...

  5. #25
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cimarron View Post
    One interesting thing that was brought up somewhere else was "back-justification". Beliefs are often formed when a person finds justification for a set of ideas, then takes and holds those ideas as dear to them. But we've seen cases where people move in the opposite direction: they take hold of a belief first, then build a justification for it afterwards. Could this be how SJs form their values? Why do you think this is or isn't the case? (Do you think that anyone actually does this? Are those people SJs?)
    I imagine all temperaments have done this at one time or another (rather similar to making a decision based on feelings, and then rationalizing it later with logic), but perhaps SJ's are more likely. I really don't know, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cimarron
    We had guessed the difference between NF Ideals and SJ Values is that SJ Values are somehow more concrete. I wasn't sure how such a thing would be possible. I figured that nearly all thought is anchored, even if partially or indirectly, to the real (physical/concrete) world...but somehow for SJs, this was more true than others? How do you make one set of Values more attached to the real world than another set (of NF Ideals, for example)? The posts above are starting to suggest ways to tell the two apart.
    I do not know that concrete/abstract is the right way to approach the difference, but I do think the real world/'reality' vs. 'what could be' could be more of a distinction.

    I've been pondering all of this, and actually hmmm's response is what got me to start really thinking about what the key SJ differences might be. I am going to highlight a few phrases that really stuck out to me, and that I think begin to illustrate a key difference in the value-creation approach/focus between the NF and the SJ. She wrote:

    Quote Originally Posted by hmmm
    I don't know if this is answering the question but the biggest reason why I like traditional values is because I have analyzed them in detail and concluded that they are what is best for not only myself but everyone around me. They are best for society as a WHOLE. I have also analyzed values based on my own individual desires or needs and concluded that, although they may benefit me greatly, they may not be the best thing for other people around me.

    Now this is not to say that the NF's, when generating values, are not also looking at what is best for those around them.

    But I am going to take what hmm wrote and branch from it - and by doing this I'm not saying this is what hmm is saying with what she wrote. I'm just going to write what I started thinking about when I read hmm's response.

    I started thinking that from a really large societal framework, I could see how it would make sense to keep things running smoothly, everyone doing what they are 'supposed' to be doing, from a societal perspective, not really breaking the mold or causing a disruption in the overall framework. Concrete example: Everyone working a 9 to 5 job, earning a living, supporting the economy, providing for self and others. This not only supports the individual, but also supports the larger society/culture - keeping the system moving, all the parts working together. This system might 'work'. It is reality, in a sense.

    The SJ might observe the culture they are in, see it for what it IS, accept it for what it IS, as a given, or as a 'Fact', and then develop values accordingly (obviously you'll have to correct me if I'm saying blatantly untrue things about SJ's - I'm just thinking this out).

    Concrete example - maintain a stable job, and work diligently at that job. People who would not follow what IS, and work against what IS, or develop something very drastic like saying what IS is not good - might be more of an NF thing to do. NF might question the very foundations the society is built upon - is capitalism necessarily a good thing in the large scheme? Do I believe this day to day existance is really what life is about? This is where you get into NF idealism -- and in some cases sheer impracticality or perhaps avoidance of 'reality' (although in some cases, the idealism itself will be a powerful enough force to enact change on a societal level) -- pushing against the fabric of what the culture runs on, or disrupting the peace (as in stability)/flow of what the society is built upon.

    Lots of other examples from history, on large cultural movements - anything human-rights related, really. The 'norm', or what has been accepted and integrated into a cultural level, getting turned upside down by those who question the foundation of the morals/'rules'/system on which the culture is based (and no, it doesn't have to be NF's who enact the change - could be NT's, SP's, SJ's -- I'm just illustrating an example).

    Personal concrete, real-life example: I have been taking long vacations, and just quit my job, will be unemployed for 6-7 months, and will be traveling for a while. Societal standards (SJ standards) are such that I'm going against the grain - it is kind of an accepted notion that, in general, people will work until retirement, and at that time, THEN they can 'have fun', relax, and travel. I don't believe it has to be that way, nor is it that way in many other cultures. I'm the odd ball out in my work environment, doing this sort of thing, and initial reactions from SJ's (family members) are that it's rather irresponsible, I 'should' be building equity in a house, or something, I 'should' be getting married, raising a family, settling down into a career of my choosing, and building from there. They have a difficult time understanding, and I think part of it is just that it goes against the grain of what the culture and 'American Dream' is built upon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cimarron
    Do you think it's accurate to say that part of the reason "SJ values and tradition" are usually looked down on is because they seem like unfounded or untested assumptions?
    I don't know that I view it as unfounded or untested. Rather, similar to above, it's more that I do not prioritize our Society itself first, and I am not concerned with preserving our society as such - and I think SJ's are more concerned with preserving our society as it is. That's what I was getting at earlier when I said I look elsewhere to other cultures (and again, I'm NOT saying people of other temperaments, including SJ's, don't do this).

    Because really, I don't necessarily value our society as it is right now -- and am not concerned with maintaining it, because I don't agree with a lot of our cultures' priorities/values. So in that sense, I look more towards humanity as a whole, and look at what our own nation could be, but is not. NF's might actually work AGAINST what is providing stability to a culture, due to an underlying principle the culture is founded upon -- which would alarm SJ's. Because the reality is that disrupting the flow of the culture is going to cause potential chaos, and a lot of changes.

    Interestingly enough, isn't a statement like "All assumptions and values should be questioned" a value itself? I don't know if it's possible to escape all assumptions.
    Yes, I think it's a value too.
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  6. #26
    IRL is not real Cimarron's Avatar
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    I think I've found two rival pairs of personalities:
    SFJ vs. NFP
    STJ vs. NTP
    Do you think these pairs tend to grate on each other's nerves?

    You see, I don't think I personally feel the same way that Hmm feels about this. It's hard to tell why I feel what I feel...

    Still, I'd be interested to see if other ISTJs aren't really feeling Hmm's explanation for tradition. No offense at all, Hmm, I think it might be an F vs. T difference (and that's what I aim to find out). You've just started a new branch of exploration. Maybe STJs are looking to uphold different things in society than SFJs, or for different reasons. Those two groups seem not to be agreeing on how much worth they place on tradition.

    Maybe something like "STJs seek logical order, whereas SFJs seek peaceful order/harmony"? SFJs say "Get along!" while STJs say "Make sense!" I just realized there's no way the answering can be "fair". There aren't enough SFJs to give their side. But I guess we can try.

    Thank you, Cascade, for the very thoughtful post. When I have more time, I will try to think about why I hold the values that I do.
    Last edited by Cimarron; 10-27-2008 at 06:30 PM. Reason: pointing it out
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  7. #27
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cimarron View Post
    Maybe STJs are looking to uphold different things in society than SFJs, or for different reasons. Those two groups seem not to be agreeing on how much worth they place on tradition.

    Maybe something like "STJs seek logical order, whereas SFJs seek peaceful order/harmony"? Or something...
    I think it's probable.

    Temperament is still a broad categorization, and there will definitely be variance within each SJ type as far as how they construct their values, and the relative importance placed on logical/system order vs. interpersonal/relationship-building-maintaining.

    I think when you're trying to find an all-encompassing 'Truth'/Theme to cover the temperament, something like the bolded statement above is what we'd be aiming for. In my latest post, I was trying to catch hold of that overall theme, and decided it was upholding Society and cultural foundations (i.e. 'American Dream', just as a concrete example. There are others.). [and yeah, many of the SJ profiles say exactly the same thing, now that I think about it, but much more concisely than I! ]

    Keeping it at the temperament level isn't going to get down to the nuts and bolts of actual internal processing/focus, as that will lie on the type level: dominant function, T/F, further broken down into Te/Ti, Fe/Fi, etc.

    But all of that said - yes, I think you could find an overall Theme for SJ's that could work for all 4.

    Thank you, Cascade, for the very thoughtful post. When I have more time, I will try to think about why I hold the values that I do.
    No problem, and thank you! I think it's interesting, and these are certainly discussions I don't tend to have with the SJ's I know in real life, so it's good for me to hear your perspectives as well.

    And yeah, if you ever do get the time to outline why you hold the values you do, I'd be interested to hear.
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  8. #28
    No moss growing on me Giggly's Avatar
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    Cascademn, thank you for that very thoughtful response. I want to say, first, that I'm not a strong believer in MBTI typing to begin with so I don't really feel comfortable speaking for SJ's as whole, only for myself. Nevertheless, I agree with what you are saying.

    Along with what I said, I also believe that one of the things that keeps society alive and moving forward is the existence of a variety of perspectives/peoples/personalities, etc. You make the point that the perspective that NF's (and whoever else who shares the same perspective as you described) is valid and necessary and I can't say anything else besides that I wholeheartedly agree with that.

    Variety is the spice of life.

    If we were all homogenized, then no forward progress would ever be made and things would grow stale and probably stagnate. This is true if everyone were NF's and thought like NF's. There would be nothing unique or fun about anyone or how they think.

    That said, the more I think about it, the more I agree with Cimarrons original hypothesis that NF's and SJ's are more alike than not, simply because people are not extremists in their perspectives (I might possibly be, I dunno), they sort of all fall into the middle of the bell curve, which is to say that the average NF will likely balance their trailblazing perspective with a bit of SJ predictablity because that is just the most comfortable way to be for most people, and SJ's balance their predictablity with a little trailblazing fun so that they feel like they are alive. At the end of the day, they both end up at the same place, despite starting from different points. I dunno if this makes sense. Long day, I'm kinda tired. I might have to come back and explain myself better later.

    Also to Cimarron: I'm the only SFJ here right now. I wouldn't recommend using only me to categorize a whole type (SFJ's) , and making subsequent groupings because of that.

  9. #29
    IRL is not real Cimarron's Avatar
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    Good advice. Thanks, Hmm.

    Instead of generalizing, I'll back up a step, and try to explain (and find the source of) my values, like others have done here.
    Last edited by Cimarron; 10-28-2008 at 12:39 AM. Reason: my intentions
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  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Condor View Post
    My values come from me, and my experiences as I live. It may sound a bit off of my "type" but I do not believe that the "traditional" values of any society have any inherent validity to them. I believe in the individual - their right to experience life in their own way, and to take responsibility for their own actions. This is what I value in myself, and in others as well. The fact that I fight for everyone's ability to make their own decisions and not follow is counterbalanced by my (admittedly almost fanatical) insistence that they take responsibility for their own actions and not attempt to pass the consequences off to someone (or something) else.

    So to address the OP, I don't get my values from others, or society as a whole. Perhaps because I'm expected to (as an upstanding, conservative member of that same society) would be a reason for the split between reality and theory.
    I had my ISFJ boyfriend read this and he wholeheartedly agrees with this statement. He says his values are based on his own set of right & wrong derived primarily from his experiences & impressions of others, which he feels differs from the general view of society at times. He also said that a lot of his interests are not in line with mainstream society (side note by me: this is probably why we get along so well, haha).

    In my personal opinion, I feel he still lives his life & enjoys his interests in a very SJ sort of way - his non mainstream interests and value are still pursued in every detail (you should see his music collection - I think half of them sound the same, but he swears there's different chords of the guitar & whatnot that makes it all unique).

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