[INTP] I need some input from INTPs

[Jack Flak]

One thing I do note though is quite often I listen to an ENFJ in mid rant about something (not always a rant but the lists/ brainstorming sometimes seem so similar) and figure out that half of what they're saying is fairly irrelevant, IMO, and so I just listen and nod at appropriate points waiting for the crux of the issue. Perhaps he is doing this whilst reading the newspaper?

It's not irrelevant, it's irrational, and you can accept that, and care, or not care, or not accept it, and "book it outta there."

Meditate on this.

 

[zago]

To the OP: your very worry is probably the source of a large portion of the problem. As an INTP, I'll say that I despise expectations and once I know that someone is my "boss," I distance myself from that person rapidly. There is no other way to put it. I see an expectation as a demand to do something for some other reason than the true reason it should be done, and that makes it impossible for me to put my heart into what I am doing. In any good relationship of mine, expectations are nil.

 

[Uytuun]

Communicate this to him?

 

[colmena]

Communicate this to him?

So true. So simple. If I was the INTP in question, I'd be upset that you came to a forum of strangers rather than talk to him directly (your heart's in the right place:given). As an INTP, he is likely psychologically minded, quite self-aware, and will have the proficiency to be objective about himself and the relationship. Discuss the disconnect with him, and build the trust that is ostensibly required. Don't look for external help when insular adversity will build strength and interdependence.

Let me know if I'm way off.

 

[Tallulah]

To the OP: your very worry is probably the source of a large portion of the problem. As an INTP, I'll say that I despise expectations and once I know that someone is my "boss," I distance myself from that person rapidly. There is no other way to put it. I see an expectation as a demand to do something for some other reason than the true reason it should be done, and that makes it impossible for me to put my heart into what I am doing. In any good relationship of mine, expectations are nil.

Yeah, I'm gonna go ahead and echo this.

And add that I hate feeling like there are expectations of me that I don't feel very capable of meeting.

As far as the future baby thing goes--it's possible he'd be very into the important things, such as spending time with the baby and giving good advice, etc. But he might think that the superfluous, feel-good part of it is kind of silly, ie endless baby crap shopping, showers, etc.

 

[Xander]

It's not irrelevant, it's irrational, and you can accept that, and care, or not care, or not accept it, and "book it outta there."

Meditate on this.

Tried that one. Usually they're telling me for completeness or trying to rationalise their decisions. I'm much happier if they just say "that's the way it is cause I said so", that I can deal with. The false rationalisations.... I tend to argue with those.

 

[Salomé]

Sunshine8,

Have you read Keirsey on The Rational Mindmate in Please Understand Me II?
If not, I recommend it. Keirsey is INTP himself and he has a pretty good idea about what makes us tick.

Extract:

It is frequently, and sadly, the case that Rationals are misunderstood on one important point by their partners, who will accuse them of being cold and unemotional, and of seeming distant and unconcerned with their welfare. NTs, for their part, are amazed that their way of relating and loving can be seen by their mates as aloof or uncaring, for they know what powerful passions surge within them, and how keenly interested they are in their mates.

I think you have caught a young one who might need to be thrown back into the pool to mature a bit until he recognises his good fortune in meeting his perfect match - type-wise, at any rate. What you are rubbing up against is the inviolability of his sense of personal autonomy, resentment of his own irrational impulses and emotions, abhorrence of interpersonal dependence, distaste for redundancy and sentimentality, obliviousness to domestic life and social niceties and high internal focus.

Some of these things will mellow with time, some won't. You have to decide whether you can take the rough with the smooth, because trying to change an INTP is like trying to push water uphill. The fact that he is with you at all, and that he is worried about his neglect of you, speaks volumes, since we don't tend to take these things lightly. And if you do get together seriously, he is likely to stay in the relationship even if it makes you both unhappy, because we are perverse like that. So, as the more emotionally mature partner, you need to decide for the both of you what it is that you need from each other, and whether you are both able to supply it.

I can tell you that he is never going to guess what you need from the relationship or how you need to be supported, so you must be explicit about it, and if you chafe at that, you are with the wrong guy. If you help him to understand in very clear and unemotional terms, (not with vague accusations like "you don't care about me", "I don't feel supported", etc, which won't mean anything to him), and if he does really care about you, he will do everything in his power to make you happy and you'll go a long way to find anyone more loyal and committed.

Conversely, if he doesn't care enough, that will be apparent too.

 

[proteanmix]

Can someone please explain what this "expectation" thing is?

It seems to me that it's fair to have some sort of expectations from a relationship (expecting to talk or see the person a few times a week, go out together, be there for each other). Of course, you should communicate those expectations to see if they're acceptable to the partner, but honestly that doesn't happen much of the time. I'm sure INTPs have expectations as well. Do you all explicitly communicate your desire not to have expectations placed on you in a relationship or what expectations you do have? Are y'all saying that the partner should expect nothing from you or only accept what you're willing to give?

 

[Salomé]

Can someone please explain what this "expectation" thing is?

It seems to me that it's fair to have some sort of expectations from a relationship (expecting to talk or see the person a few times a week, go out together, be there for each other). Of course, you should communicate those expectations to see if they're acceptable to the partner, but honestly that doesn't happen much of the time. I'm sure INTPs have expectations as well. Do you all explicitly communicate your desire not to have expectations placed on you in a relationship or what expectations you do have? Are y'all saying that the partner should expect nothing from you or only accept what you're willing to give?

I can't speak for all INTPs...but I will.

We have less expectations than other types. We are very easy-going.
We do expect to be left alone to some extent. If not, we prolly will do something about that. Like leave.

Smothering =
Anything else = whateva...

 

[g_vartan]

Sunshine,

I've been there, done that

You ask some very good questions and it seems very apparent that you are trying to understand and accommodate his needs and preferences as an INTP. One word of caution though, is this something you can do or sustain in the long-term? I would agree with several other's suggestion that it is futile to expect INTPs to change.

As an ENFJ, my natural inclination is to give, nurture, and provide warmth to those I love and tend not to ask for much for myself --- but as my friends and family have pointed out, for me to be happy and continue to be the 'support' that I am to a lot of folks, my partner (who was an INTP) needs to meet some of those needs. What will you give out to others (or your partner) when there is nothing left to give?

In addition, I think you already recognize that the INTP and ENFJ's 'love languages' are quite different --- you will need to learn how to pick it up as to not to demand that they always express it on an NF's terms. But likewise, he needs to learn not to be overwhelmed when you express your affection or desires. I think this was the most painful thing to me - as an ENFJ, I surround myself with people but there are very few that I let 'in', and the closest one was my INTP partner, and for him not to 'show or express' his affection when I needed it the most was heartbreaking for me.

At the end of day, all I have to say is that you can try to understand the ways of the INTPs but you can't forget your needs and preferences because it might be the straw that breaks the camel's back.

 

[SolitaryWalker]

Hi,

All INTPs out there...I am trying to understand my partner better (male). He is an INTP and from what I have read you guys can be pretty tricky customers indeed. Even his friends have congratulated me for lasting so long as they describe him as 'very hard to please'. Well I think we should both be pleased, but anyway...

What attracts me?
My father is an ENTJ and my mother is an INFP. I turned out an ENFJ.

I think what I like about my BF is that he is an interesting mix of two of the things I liked most about my parents.

He is strong willed and intelligent and I can have intense and abstract conversations with him. He also has a great love of being active and the outdoors.

However where my Dad was straight down the line and not quirky at all, my BF is just the opposite. He makes up songs and enjoys practical jokes that tend to piss me off at first. Then I work out that it was his attempt to be funny but by then it is a bit boom-boom. Most of the time it just offends.

But I love his other worldy left-of-field side. We both love reading and exploring new places at our own pace. I give him plenty of space (we only see each other a few nights a week) and a lot of that time is spent reading or swimming etc. We are nearly always one-on-one and at his house. He hates going to my house (and it's a nice house!) but I have tried to accept that he is only really going to be relaxed in his own zone.

My main trouble is this - he seems to be very easily frustrated and almost a tryant at times. He is very attuned to his own discomfort and if other people are not listening to him, yet he fazes out rapidly as soon as anyone else talks - almost as if he doesn't think they are worth the effort. This sometimes embarasses me when we are with family/friends. It also hurts me when a lot of the time it seems he would rather read the paper and won't give me eye contact, even when I have just actively listened to him talk about himself for a long time.

I continue to listen more than talk but it gets me down sometimes. I have stopped sharing some of my best ideas and thoughts now for a long itme - about a year. Every now and again I will test the waters but he just walks out of the room or watches the TV or reads so I give up trying. What happens then is that my friends and family get the best of me and know me (in my eyes anyway) a lot better. He has noticed this and commented about three weeks ago that he should be nicer to me - that he has observed me having more fun with my friends than with him. He has lately been asking me about my day, how I am etc which shows he is trying, but he doesn't seem particularly concerned about the response! I guess it is a slow process. What is weird is that sometimes he does remember things I have said very well - so something must occasionally be getting in.

I am most worried about how he will be as a parent. Are any of you fathers? How did you cope with having to support a partner through labour? Were you interested in the pregnancy and tried to be involved? Do you see that it takes two to raise a kid or are you off in another world while your partner looks after all of the day-to-day stuff? I have this horrible vision of being at the hospital and him checking his watch and getting impatient because he has more important things to do. Would that happen? Can an INTP be happy to support others at least in big things like that? I just don't think I can be trying to cater to his needs while I am going through something like that - I would rather have my sisters and mother with me instead!

I don't mean to sound too cynical. He is an interesting person to know and can be surprisingly sweet - but I just can't picture him reading baby books and getting up for a screaming toddler - help! Please give me some insight (and hope - if there is reason for it).

Thankyou

INTPs are very easy to please because they have low expectations from people. That is the case because Feeling is their inferior function.

They are not easily excitable however. Their mood often stays neutral. Thus, when Fs can do nothing to get a positive emotional reaction from the INTP (the INTP stays emotionally withdrawn on the surface), the F thinks the INTP must be displeased.


That is not so. INTPs are misunderstood on this account often. As this INTP profile says, INTP Relationships, the INTP would be well advised to find a Thinking partner, one who will not perceive the INTP's lack of feedback as negative feedback.

Thus, you as an F, must make an effort to avoid commiting this error in judgment.

The INTP is a dominant Thinking type. Which means prefers direct communication. If you have a problem, make sure you know exactly what this problem is, make sure you can articulate it clearly, and state it to him. Do not worry about hurting his feelings, dom Ts have thick skin.

Bottom line is, a Thinking type wants to solve problems, if he values your relationship and you state the problem about your relationship to him, and he regards this is as a genuine problem, he will make an effort to solve it.

Bottom line is, quit relying on the subtle F language of communication (e.g hints), and instead make an effort to communicate as clearly and directly as possible. Secondly, the INTP usually communicates clearly and directly. Thus, do not assume that he intended to make a message of any kind unless he stated it explicitly. For example, do not assume that he does not like you because he does not compliment you, or because he does not smile when he looks at you. Such assumption will almost always be mistaken. If he did not like you, he'd tell you so directly, Ts generally do not much worry about hurting the feelings of others.

It certainly could be the case however, that he does not like you, but chooses to maintain a relationship with you for other reasons, for instance practical gain of some kind. But in any case, the bottom line is, if there is a message he would like for you to receive, he would send it clearly and directly rather than subtly.

 

[Tallulah]

I can't speak for all INTPs...but I will.

We have less expectations than other types. We are very easy-going.
We do expect to be left alone to some extent. If not, we prolly will do something about that. Like leave.

Smothering =
Anything else = whateva...

Yup, exactly. You won't catch an INTP trying to change his/her partner, because we accept them the way they are. If we can't handle the way they are, we'll just figure we're incompatible. We value our own autonomy, and we extend that same courtesy to our mates. So we get annoyed when our partners try and change us and make lots of demands on us.

I don't think we're for everyone.

 

[g_vartan]

...Bottom line is, a Thinking type wants to solve problems, if he values your relationship and you state the problem about your relationship to him, and he regards this is as a genuine problem, he will make an effort to solve it...

Bluewing, could you clarify the difference between 'having no or low expectations' on INTPs (an advice that is often provided) versus 'stating the problem or issue succinctly' for the INTP to understand? Isn't this conflicting? There seems to be a fine line that one needs to walk on but rather difficult to understand or distinguish (as an NF anyways).

 

[proteanmix]

INTPs are very easy to please because they have low expectations from people. That is the case because Feeling is their inferior function.

They are not easily excitable however. Their mood often stays neutral. Thus, when Fs can do nothing to get a positive emotional reaction from the INTP (the INTP stays emotionally withdrawn on the surface), the F thinks the INTP must be displeased.


That is not so. INTPs are misunderstood on this account often. As this INTP profile says, INTP Relationships, the INTP would be well advised to find a Thinking partner, one who will not perceive the INTP's lack of feedback as negative feedback.

Thus, you as an F, must make an effort to avoid commiting this error in judgment.

The INTP is a dominant Thinking type. Which means prefers direct communication. If you have a problem, make sure you know exactly what this problem is, make sure you can articulate it clearly, and state it to him. Do not worry about hurting his feelings, dom Ts have thick skin.

Bottom line is, a Thinking type wants to solve problems, if he values your relationship and you state the problem about your relationship to him, and he regards this is as a genuine problem, he will make an effort to solve it.

Bottom line is, quit relying on the subtle F language of communication (e.g hints), and instead make an effort to communicate as clearly and directly as possible. Secondly, the INTP usually communicates clearly and directly. Thus, do not assume that he intended to make a message of any kind unless he stated it explicitly. For example, do not assume that he does not like you because he does not compliment you, or because he does not smile when he looks at you. Such assumption will almost always be mistaken. If he did not like you, he'd tell you so directly, Ts generally do not much worry about hurting the feelings of others.

It certainly could be the case however, that he does not like you, but chooses to maintain a relationship with you for other reasons, for instance practical gain of some kind. But in any case, the bottom line is, if there is a message he would like for you to receive, he would send it clearly and directly rather than subtly.

Not that I have a large pool of INTPs to draw my conclusions from (only three) but it has been my experience that they are not direct at all. It's just poof, gone (not necessarily physically but they're definitely not there). Attempts to deal directly with them after hints (which aren't necessarily subtle) have gone unresponded to end in withdrawal.

I'm not sure what you mean that the INTP must decide it's a "genuine problem." That seems to contradict the directness you suggest. So if I tell an INTP 'hey, I feel like I'm not getting enough affection from you' and they don't think it's a genuine problem you're back at square one. The other partner is steadily communicating to them but if they don't think it merits a response it becomes a festering problem.

Doesn't that seem like the INTP gets to pick and choose what issues they want to address in the relationship and leave everything else ignored? That's why I say I don't find them as direct as you claim. And once again I ask, do INTPs take the time to communicate their lower relationship needs/expectations to their partners?

 

[Jack Flak]

It makes me sick to my stomach saying this, but "Listen to Bluewing." This time, and this time only.

 

[Tallulah]

Not that I have a large pool of INTPs to draw my conclusions from (only three) but it has been my experience that they are not direct at all. It's just poof, gone (not necessarily physically but they're definitely not there). Attempts to deal directly with them after hints (which aren't necessarily subtle) have gone unresponded to end in withdrawal.

I'm not sure what you mean that the INTP must decide it's a "genuine problem." That seems to contradict the directness you suggest. So if I tell an INTP 'hey, I feel like I'm not getting enough affection from you' and they don't think it's a genuine problem you're back at square one. The other partner is steadily communicating to them but if they don't think it merits a response it becomes a festering problem.

Doesn't that seem like the INTP gets to pick and choose what issues they want to address in the relationship and leave everything else ignored? That's why I say I don't find them as direct as you claim. And once again I ask, do INTPs take the time to communicate their lower relationship needs/expectations to their partners?

Protean--

1) The INTP has to care about the relationship in question, for one thing. If he/she doesn't have enough invested in it, there won't be much at stake, and it'll be a case of "Sheesh, this is getting to be more trouble than it's worth," with a hasty exit. INTPs don't have a great need for human interaction. If it frustrates you, you might not want to spend a lot of time around INTPs.

2) Even if the INTP really cares about you, if you're constantly making demands, either directly or indirectly, it feels like being barraged. We have extremely undeveloped F, and we like to spend a lot of time in our heads. We like to share things with our loved ones, but we don't like being "drawn out." If you're patient, it'll happen naturally. If you have a high expectation for emotional sharing and bonding, you'll probably end up unnecessarily hurt.

3) Taking an attitude of "Well, that certainly seems convenient for the INTP, now, doesn't it? You just get to do what you want, and everyone else has to do the adjusting!" is a clear sign that you're probably never going to get what you want out of an INTP. Truth is, we do a lot of adjusting, but we never, ever make a big deal out of it. All the little things around the house, for instance--if you have a preference, we'll probably do it your way, because it makes you happy and doesn't bother us. I guess we just like a little credit for the stuff we DO do, as well as a little space to be in our personal head-playgrounds.

4) You can be direct; just don't be accusatory or with implied judgment. Be as neutral as possible about it, and the INTP is happy to discuss.

 

[zago]

I thought this quote from an INTP profile I was reading was particularly relevant:

Independence, derived primarily from strongly introverted Thinking, leads to perhaps the most difficult aspect (for others) of the INTP, namely stubbornness. If an INTP is pushed into doing something he will automatically resist. The reason for the resistance is simply that any action must first be filtered by the Ti, guided by the Ne. He must be given the chance to reach an independent decision, approving or rejecting the action. Hence, he must withdraw to allow the analysis process to work. If withdrawal is not allowed then stubborn resistance is the inevitable result. However, others may not always find the INTP excessively stubborn, since the decision-making process can sometimes be rapidly accelerated when intuition takes the upper hand. The best way to get an INTP to do something is to suggest the idea as an option and let him sleep on it. Ultimately, the INTP must always believe that it is his decision. Once he is satisfied that the decision was independently reached, then he is content.

 

[Sunshine8]

It's finished

Well thanks for your input everyone (again) but it is all over. And strangely, I am kind of relieved. It has been a tough year in many ways.

Someone made a comment that if an INTP is really committed to a relationship they will put effort in to make things work. If they are not that into it than they will be 'whatever' and not really try. I would have stuck by him through thick and thin, changed aspects of myself etc. But I can't make someone care. That has to come from the other person.

And if I am honest with myself, I don't think he really cared that much. And this sad fact was highly apparent on the weekend. He was kind of a bastard actually, which is a shame. And very unfair. He even said he realised he was being unreasonable but still stuck to his guns, even when he was nearly in tears. I guess having his way meant more to him than me and so he has it...for good.

I even gave him the opportunity to turn it all around before I left - I made it so easy and laid it all out - just a beer and a chat. But he didn't stop me walking out the door - and suggested I might as well do it.

I will never see or speak to him again. I am erasing him from my life in every way possible and moving on.

I am going to sign off the forum for a while because I believe I have wasted enough time and effort trying to understand him. Although the information was obviously very good I just can't be bothered thinking about him anymore - I am done.

So best of luck to you all - your comments helped me a lot and I promise not to hold anything against INTPs!

 

[Poser]

Really sorry to hear that you had to go through this but I wish you would stay. The best part of this forum is to learn more about yourself.

 

[Tallulah]

So sorry things didn't work out, Sunshine8.