[MBTI General] INTP + ESTJ

[thisGuy]

INTP will have to talk more and be more patient

ESTJ will have to listen more and know when to shut tup

 

[EJCC]

INTP will have to talk more and be more patient

ESTJ will have to listen more and know when to shut tup

That's more of a general E vs. I thing, isn't it? From my experience, the problems with ESTJ/INTP relations come more from their similarities, e.g. Both types need to be aware of the other's feelings, and respond accordingly, and both need to work at understanding the other one.

My dad is an INTP. I have a good relationship with him, generally. Areas for conflict generally arise in these areas:
- Him wishing that I was more of a "leader", which, by his standards, means "innovator", which I'm really not
- Him enjoying pointing out my flaws and laughing at them (when he's in a certain mood)
- Like Jack Flak (r.i.p.) mentioned earlier, a lot of bizarre miscommunication
- Him being impossible to reason with when he's upset
- One of us reacting badly to the other when one is upset with something that the other doesn't think is a big deal (e.g. "Whoa, man, take a chill pill!" Hooray for poor emotional intelligence.)

Someone said earlier that ESTJ and INTP go together worst of all. I disagree - my experiences with ENTPs have been much worse. With ENTPs and ESTJs, I find that since ENTPs are so much more... uh... prone towards debate... that you get interactions like this all the time:
ESTJ: These are the rules.
ENTP: But they don't make sense! They should be like this and this.
ESTJ: They do make sense! They exist for a reason!
ENTP: But wouldn't it be BETTER if it were like this and this?
... in short...
ESTJ: Respect mah authoritah!
ENTP: No! YOU respect mah cool ideas!
...This doesn't make for a lot of fun interactions. Debates go nowhere. We're just on such different wavelengths. (I agree with the previous statement that it's a Te vs. Ti thing - same with INTPs as with ENTPs, only worse with ENTPs because of the clashing extraversion.)

 

[INTJ123]

That's more of a general E vs. I thing, isn't it? From my experience, the problems come more from the similarities, e.g. Both types need to be aware of the other's feelings, and respond accordingly, and both need to work at understanding the other one.

My dad is an INTP. I have a good relationship with him, generally. Areas for conflict generally arise in these areas:
- Him wishing that I was more of a "leader", which, by his standards, means "innovator", which I'm really not
- Him enjoying pointing out my flaws and laughing at them (when he's in a certain mood)
- Like Jack Flak (r.i.p.) mentioned earlier, a lot of bizarre miscommunication
- Him being impossible to reason with when he's upset
- One of us reacting badly to the other when one is upset with something that the other doesn't think is a big deal (e.g. "Whoa, man, take a chill pill!" Hooray for poor emotional intelligence.)

Someone said earlier that ESTJ and INTP go together worst of all. I disagree - my experiences with ENTPs have been much worse. With ENTPs and ESTJs, I find that since ENTPs are so much more... uh... prone towards debate... that you get interactions like this all the time:
ESTJ: These are the rules.
ENTP: But they don't make sense! They should be like this and this.
ESTJ: They do make sense! They exist for a reason!
ENTP: But wouldn't it be BETTER if it were like this and this?
... in short...
ESTJ: Respect mah authoritah!
ENTP: No! YOU respect mah cool ideas!
...This doesn't make for a lot of fun interactions. Debates go nowhere. We're just on such different wavelengths. (I agree with the previous statement that it's a Te vs. Ti thing - same with INTPs as with ENTPs, only worse with ENTPs because of the clashing extraversion.)

Your reasons for following the rules never make good sense to me, one of your reasons would be that it has always been done that way. It's that SJ mentality in maintaining the status quo that makes you behave like this, fear of change, it never seems to matter even if an alternative method would be more efficient and in the end make our lives easier.

 

[EJCC]

Your reasons for following the rules never make good sense to me, one of your reasons would be that it has always been done that way. It's that SJ mentality in maintaining the status quo that makes you behave like this, fear of change, it never seems to matter even if an alternative method would be more efficient and in the end make our lives easier.

Firstly, let's not jump to generalizations. If there's proof that your alternate methods work, a healthy ESTJ shouldn't have any problem with them. We aren't pro-status quo ALL the time.

Secondly, it would be nice if this thread wouldn't turn into a "What is it with you people??" thread. It's insulting to everyone - after all, people who go that route are dissing on something that's innate, and that they can't change that well. For instance, the bolded statement, which I find to be closed-minded and judgmental. One of the reasons that this forum is so great is that it exposes people to different mindsets, and learning to accept that there isn't one right way to go about things. Being judgmental isn't going to help much with that.

Thirdly, my ENTP anecdote was, in part, self-deprecating, just to clarify. I was not insulting the ENTP (/INTP) way of thinking.

 

[INTJ123]

Firstly, let's not jump to generalizations. If there's proof that your alternate methods work, a healthy ESTJ shouldn't have any problem with them. We aren't pro-status quo ALL the time.

Secondly, it would be nice if this thread wouldn't turn into a "What is it with you people??" thread. It's insulting to everyone - after all, people who go that route are dissing on something that's innate, and that they can't change that well. For instance, the bolded statement, which I find to be closed-minded and judgmental. One of the reasons that this forum is so great is that it exposes people to different mindsets, and learning to accept that there isn't one right way to go about things. Being judgmental isn't going to help much with that.

Thirdly, my ENTP anecdote was, in part, self-deprecating, just to clarify. I was not insulting the ENTP (/INTP) way of thinking.

Sorry I didn't mention that you don't even seem like an ESTJ to me, but you might be the first healthy one I've seen.
Yes I do tend to generalize and I wasn't personally attacking you, just your type. I have become bitter from experience with them.

 

[Ulaes]

Someone said earlier that ESTJ and INTP go together worst of all. I disagree - my experiences with ENTPs have been much worse.

maybe thats because the intps are less expressive of their thoughts, you've jsut gone and filled in the blanks yourself. estjs do this to me all the time and they're never even close, it's ridiculous, so i wonder who the heck the estj thinks they've been talking to all this time.

 

[ajblaise]

I personally think it would be a nightmare.

Though maybe an ESTJ would be good for a super-passive INTP that desperately needs someone to straighten them out.

 

[CJ99]

Someone said earlier that ESTJ and INTP go together worst of all. I disagree - my experiences with ENTPs have been much worse. With ENTPs and ESTJs, I find that since ENTPs are so much more... uh... prone towards debate... that you get interactions like this all the time:
ESTJ: These are the rules.
ENTP: But they don't make sense! They should be like this and this.
ESTJ: They do make sense! They exist for a reason!
ENTP: But wouldn't it be BETTER if it were like this and this?
... in short...
ESTJ: Respect mah authoritah!
ENTP: No! YOU respect mah cool ideas!
...This doesn't make for a lot of fun interactions. Debates go nowhere. We're just on such different wavelengths. (I agree with the previous statement that it's a Te vs. Ti thing - same with INTPs as with ENTPs, only worse with ENTPs because of the clashing extraversion.)

You have further convinced me that I'm ENTP not INTP.

 

[thisGuy]

That's more of a general E vs. I thing, isn't it? From my experience

DUH...miscommunication, or the lack thereof, is the key to relationships from where i stand

ESTJ: These are the rules.
ENTP: But they don't make sense! They should be like this and this.
ESTJ: They do make sense! They exist for a reason!
ENTP: But wouldn't it be BETTER if it were like this and this?
... in short...
ESTJ: Respect mah authoritah!
ENTP: No! YOU respect mah cool ideas!
...This doesn't make for a lot of fun interactions. Debates go nowhere. We're just on such different wavelengths. (I agree with the previous statement that it's a Te vs. Ti thing - same with INTPs as with ENTPs, only worse with ENTPs because of the clashing extraversion.)

you known, i can't even see how that example proves your point. the rules are made by the people, for the people

 

[Matthew_Z]

Since this thread has seen a full revival, I'll add my thoughts.

The ESTJ/INTP relationship looks relatively good on paper:

Both are T-doms. (Te for the ESTJ, Ti for the INTP) In theory, without a strong F from either side, they should be able to communicate without easily offending the other. (or, conversely, easily communicate without offending the other)

ESTJ: Te Si Ne Fi
INTP: Ti Ne Si Fe

The two also have similar perceiving functions. (Si-Ne and Ne-Si) The main reason each person is the relationship can develop BOTH functions is because they conflict in the most minimal degree due to their operation in different areas.

Conclusion:
Why not?

Postscript: I've yet to type a non-forum persona as ESTJ.

 

[EJCC]

maybe thats because the intps are less expressive of their thoughts, you've jsut gone and filled in the blanks yourself.

I think you're right. INTPs keep quiet where ENTPs wouldn't, thereby minimizing conflict (but not making the INTPs any less annoyed). In my relationships with INTPs, they don't annoy me until I begin to annoy them, and their seemingly disproportionate reaction to me is what drives me nuts. So... yeah.

you known, i can't even see how that example proves your point. the rules are made by the people, for the people

Yes, but if an ENTP or an INTP thinks that their idea would work better than the current rules, they won't have much respect for it. They're not into respecting authority purely because "that's what you're supposed to do". That sense of duty that almost all SJs have doesn't come as naturally to NTPs. They're called "innovators" for a reason.

 

[thisGuy]

I think you're right. INTPs keep quiet where ENTPs wouldn't, thereby minimizing conflict (but not making the INTPs any less annoyed). In my relationships with INTPs, they don't annoy me until I begin to annoy them, and their seemingly disproportionate reaction to me is what drives me nuts. So... yeah.


Yes, but if an ENTP or an INTP thinks that their idea would work better than the current rules, they won't have much respect for it. They're not into respecting authority purely because "that's what you're supposed to do". That sense of duty that almost all SJs have doesn't come as naturally to NTPs. They're called "innovators" for a reason.

and if there IS a better way to do it, why would you insist on doing it the other way?

 

[JocktheMotie]

and if there IS a better way to do it, why would you insist on doing it the other way?

They do the "believe it when I see" thing. The trick is getting them to see it. My gf has adopted tons of things I do because I've shown her "the better way." Some are just too obstinate to let you try.

 

[weminuche]

INTP Male with ESTJ wife I'm getting ready to jettison.

Mine was great for a while, but we were never able to resolve conflict. We also have general compatibility/goals/interests/issues that might be independent of type (new to this). She is a materialistic social climber....and wants to do it with my money and hard work. Materialistic & social climber are mentioned in the ESTJ profiles I've read though....I just happen to despise both. She wasnt that way went we first started dating about 10 yrs ago.

The attraction and relationship were great for about a year (she is definitely hot). Once conflict happened, it went down hill. We never have "made up" She just get less pissed eventually....

I think the pairing is kinda easy and natural and good for attraction, but if the values, goals and interests are different, or if like in my case the ENTJ has very underdeveloped Introverted Sensing.....bad news.

I got this from here. http://www.personalitypage.com/ESTJ_per.html

Possible problems when ESTJ type is not well balanced. (Obviously this does not apply to all ESTJ's) It describes my wife well though. Who COULD possibly enjoy this other than a door mat sadist?

But read this and imagine life if the "principles" of the ESTJ differ from those of the INTP. Next time I think I would much rather work on my touchy-feely side with an nurturing supportive F, than a deal with a dictator ESTJ.

Nearly all of the problematic characteristics described above can be attributed to the common problem of Extraverted Thinking overtaking the ESTJ personality to the point that all other personality functions exist only to serve Thinking's needs. A healthy and successful personality needs to have a good balance between its dominant and auxiliary functions. For an ESTJ, dominant Extraverted Thinking needs to be well-supported by the auxiliary Introverted Sensing function. If Introverted Sensing exists only to support the agenda of Extraverted Thinking, then neither function is living up to its potential, and the subject ESTJ is not reaching their potential in their job or their personal relationships.

In the case where auxilary Sensing is underused, the ESTJ will live entirely within the boundaries of their existing principles. They will hold up their own set of principles as an inalienable representation of the Right Thing To Do, and apply everything they encounter in life to this principle system. If they perceive behavior that does not fit into their set of principles, they will ruthlessly judge it and shut down any alternative view of the violation. In being so tied to their Extraverted Thinking process, they lose the ability to truly consider incoming information, and therefore lose the ability to synergize with other people and solve problems in an effective way. Perhaps most importantly, the ESTJ loses the ability to connect with their own Self. They become out of touch with their own personal needs, and dissociated from their core Self. The net effect of these happenings is an ESTJ leader who expects absolute adherence to his or her demands; who lacks the ability to see long-range implications associated with these demands; who is unwilling to consider alternate solutions or plans; and who is dissociated from any personal priorities or value system. Such a leader is unlikely to be effective and successful in their job or personal life, although are likely unaware of the reasons for their problems.

It is quite common for people to allow their dominant function to overrule their personality. In the case of the Extraverted Thinker, allowing Thinking to dominate without counter-balance can have great impact on the social interactions of the ESTJ. Female ESTJs may be viewed as overbearing, controlling, or masculine, and may not be as readily accepted by social standards. This may cause low self- esteem in the female ESTJ. Male ESTJs are somewhat worse off, because social stereotypes may encourage them that they are entitled to be domineering. They may have no interest in growing beyond their limited outlook.


....... In the case where the ESTJ has an overly-dominant Thinking function, the importance of the auxilliary Sensing function is reduced. Data cannot be seen outside of its context within a principle. The ESTJ will not be able to see beyond the fact that a principle has been violated. They will be unable to see the data objectively.

 

[pardo]

I am IxTP, my girlfriend is ESxJ. It's a tricky balance but it's working, for now.
In these 2 years she had a lot of fun trying to throw me off the balance, and I've become an expert in glass-stepping.
Anyway... she talks all the time, she's emotionally clingy, she has too many people and obligations in her life, she's so exaggerately sure of herself that she makes me laugh and I laugh even more when her overbearing self tries to force something on me.
And she has a SHORT temper, mostly fun for me, but god bless the unlucky souls of her subordinates at work -_-
So we are a decent pairing, because obviously I am a cold, silent, hard-headed loner of a dog with no friends and I surely need someone like her to lighten up my life.
But I am always worried about what could happen if we tried to live together. She wouldn't leave me alone about all sorts of petty things, so she could easily get on my nerves because I really need a lot of time alone, and a quiet, private house, to pursue my technical/intellectual interests.
Time will tell.

 

[weminuche]

Anyway... she talks all the time, she's emotionally clingy,

After my unbalanced ESTJ experience, feel lucky the F is there.

she's so exaggerately sure of herself

If she is like mine (may not be), it is an ACT. It took me 15 years to realize it was the result of very well hidden serious insecurity. It would have helped (some) if I would have realized that, but that ridiculously cocky strong proud act, made it damn hard to see.

that she makes me laugh and I laugh even more when her overbearing self tries to force something on me.....And she has a SHORT temper, mostly fun for me, but god bless the unlucky souls of her subordinates at work -_-

Sounds like you are handling it in a healthy way. Beware when she gets REALLY truly pissed/unhappy and has more tools to use (deep long-term commitment and investment in the relationship + kids) The assaults can be withering.

But I am always worried about what could happen if we tried to live together.

see warning above. but for now at least your situation seems better than mine. IF and that is a big IF, the two of you can understand and work with each others differences before things get bad, it could be a great match. The chemistry is definitely there. Mine had little interest in understanding me or changing herself though.

Make sure she realizes what she is getting herself into with an INTP. Show her the articles on relationships for your and her type.

Look HARD at her principles, values, goals and interest vs. yours. She is likely to expect you to conform to her's. I would assume she will. If they dont mesh with yours, you are looking at a pending disaster.

My ESTJ is now a very status oriented, materialistic social climber.....common faults for *unbalanced* ESTJ's....and I HATE that crap. It is so important to her and I hate it so much we are incompatible based solely on that. It only takes ONE...ONE strongly held value conflict or one deep inner need to go unmet to doom a relationship. Think hard about that one.

Make sure your goals, values, and interests are compatible. Much of that is outside personality. This can cause confusion b/t attraction and love. If goals, values, and interests are incompatible, you may still want to have sex with her and not like the idea of leaving her, but you can not truly value her.

Also, and this is very important if you do not want to become a door mat, although she will be damn determined to lead all the time. Do NOT let yourself become the follower appeaser type guy. She will loose respect for you. Women dont like men to be wussy indifferent followers...even the ones who insist on leading! Go figure, but that's just how it is.

Know your own values and needs and insist that they are met....be the man! Be caring and giving and supportive, but be the man.

 

[Unique]

INTP + ESTJ... I've only got one question

Why?

 

[weminuche]

INTP + ESTJ... I've only got one question

Why?

Because shewas hot as hell and loads of easygoing fun.....for about a year or two. Not likely to ever go there again though!

 

[Takelah]

i shudder to imagine...

i do not think i have met an estj i've liked – aren't they like the intp's natural enemy?

 

[JocktheMotie]

i shudder to imagine...

i do not think i have met an estj i've liked – aren't they like the intp's natural enemy?

Maybe in the corporate world [in which case, as an INTP, what the hell are you doing in that world in the first place] but socially, they're tons of fun and great peoples.