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Thread: INTP + ESTJ

  1. #11
    Babylon Candle Array Venom's Avatar
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    Feb 2008
    1w9 sp/sx


    Quote Originally Posted by zago View Post
    Of all the type combinations out there, INTP/ESTJ may be the worst possible one. In a general sense, of course. It isn't so much the sensing vs. intuition problem, it is more the Te vs. Ti that causes a problem. They are simply in direct opposition to one another. Te wants to do things efficiently, together, and "the right way." Ti doesn't want efficiency, it wants minimum effort.

    So, when my ESTJ roommate took out the garbage every day when it wasn't even full and then got mad at me for never taking it out, the problem was that I figured why take it out if it isn't full? From Te's perspective, taking the garbage out is just something you do as a part of being a responsible home owner. From Ti's perspective, taking the garage out becomes a priority when the cost of not taking it out exceeds the benefit of not taking it out. If you can't stick something in the can without it falling out, it is time to take out the trash.

    This simple illustration tends to be the pattern for all things in the relationship between the ESTJ and the INTP, in my experience. It is also nicely shows how introverted and extroverted judgment work. Introverted thinks of things as they are directly linked to physical reality--a completely timeless way of seeing things. Extroverted judgment is conceptual and based on rules and norms--defined by the culture that is taking place at the moment.

    Interestingly, it is the opposite way for perception, making Ne and Se the ones directly linked to physical reality, and Ni and Si the conceptual ones based on people's overlying perceptions.
    i think that much of what you list as a Te vs Ti, is actually a Si vs TiNe thing.

    for instance, i do not take out the trash unless its full either... however, my ESTJ friend who lives two doors down the hall, keeps his place spotless. I would chalk that up to his Si.

  2. #12
    Senior Member Array zago's Avatar
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    Jun 2008


    I am not so sure about that, but I won't rule it out. Si could be responsible for taking on the role of "responsible housekeeper" that they do.

    Compare these 2 descriptions:

    Si: Reviewing past experiences; "what is" evoking "what was;" seeking detailed information and links to what is known; recalling stored impressions; accumulating data; recognizing the way things have always been. Remembering the last time you wore a particular item or the last time you were at a similar event--maybe even remembering how you felt then.

    Te: Segmenting; organizing for efficiency; systematizing; applying logic; structuring; checking for consequences; monitoring for standards or specifications being met; setting boundaries, guidelines, and parameters; deciding if something is working or not. Sorting out different colors and styles; thinking about the consequences, as in "since I have to stand all day..."

    To me it seems like Te is what builds the action based routine of taking out the trash. Si is perceptive and therefore more passive.

  3. #13
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    Apr 2008


    I have a good friend that's ESTJ.
    We definitely drive each other crazy often.. but we connect in many ways..
    We're both very carefree and goofy. He absolutely loves my goofiness. I love how he's great at organizing social events. He always finds something fun for my group of friends. Well it sucks when we always have to eat at wherever he absolutely has to eat at, or watch whatever movie he absolutely has to watch. But other than that, he's pretty awesome.

  4. #14
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    Nov 2008


    Hi, I think this thread has probably been dead a long time, but I thought I'd post my comment here anyhow and hope somebody notices

    I'm an INTP who has been in a relationship for a few months with a textbook ESTJ. So far, it's going very well, though I can see right away why people would consider it a bad match [many of the above comments express valid points]. The thing is, though, I have always imagined myself with somebody like an ESTJ or an ENTJ, because I want somebody with strong ties to his community, who has a natural talent for laying roots and building a family. Because I lack these abilities myself, I let my mate manage those realms where he excels. My boyfriend plans social events, he cooks for me, he takes me out to dance [though I'm awful at it]... he basically gets me out of the house and away from my books and the internet so that I can experience the world in a different way.

    I'll admit, his obscenely large circle of friends and action-packed schedule does tire me out, and sometimes I have to tell him I need time alone to think. There are times when I will space-out at parties or midway through conversations, and I need to explain to him that it shouldn't be taken as an insult, but more as a compliment that something he said inspired careful thought. Sometimes I wish he had a better appreciation for things in the abstract. Sometimes his religiosity troubles me [I'm an atheist and I know that this troubles him]. Still, I have to say that there are many more things about him that I respect and value than things I wish were different.

    With regards to the managing of chores, which was the subject of a few posts above, it is true that our styles differ wildly. I know because we met while both working at the same cafť part-time while studying. [True to ESTJ form, he would not date a coworker... even a part-time coworker at a coffee shop, on grounds that it was 'unprofessional,' so he quit so we could date. Even after giving his two weeks notice, he refused to schedule the first date until the day after his last shift... yes, this amused/infuriated me to no end.] Anyway, we used to close the store together twice a week, and it was a very delicate negotiation. There were things that he insisted that I do even if it didn't make any sense to do them, because these were the "standards." This didn't make me mad as much as it made me laugh at his ESTJ stubbornness. We made a deal. I'd accomplish every task on the list, and I'd be true to his precious "standards" and then some, if he let me do the tasks in the /sequence/ I wanted. A small but effective compromise. Though at first he loomed over my shoulder, puzzling over why I was sweeping only after the counters and garbage were done, and why I was cleaning one espresso machine hours before the second, and why certain surfaces were polished early and others were left messy until the very last second... he could not argue that I always finished on time and with a spotless store. And, to be fair to him, the more experience I got, the more I appreciated the relevance of the standards to alot of the work I was doing. In the end, I think we made a pretty good team.

    Oh, and to add to the differences between us... there is a cultural divide as well. I'm a white Canadian mutt who loves the Enlightenment and revels in the best of Western culture, and he is a pure-bred Parsi [Zoroastrian, from India] who lives in Canada but whose heart will always belong to the East. Believe me, nobody who knows us can understand why we are together, and yet it all feels perfectly natural. He tells me that in every domain where he feels he is lacking in talent or knowledge, I fill it in. Now, he doesn't trust himself to make wise decisions unless I am with him or he has consulted with me. I feel the same way. Moreover, we do not compete with one another [a big problem I had when dating INTP/ ENTP/ INTJs] because our strengths are complementary rather than reinforcing.

    Granted, this happiness together might be ephemeral. We will see once the newness of it wears off, I suppose. Maybe I'll come back around these parts and post an update.


  5. #15
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    Default I am in an tntp/estj relationship

    Hey, Im new here so be nice

    Im an ESTJ and my boyfriend (ish) is an INTP. I dont know about what other people are saying with their predictions of that pairing not getting on - quite the opposite: me and my bf hit it off immediately and have always had a really strong rapport. The attraction is still as intense as ever and dont get me started on how good things are in the bedroom - we are totally in tune and have been from the very beginning!

    I say ish about my boyfriend because we are currently in a long distance relationship and neither of us wants to move to be together any time soon (we are both from Aberdeen in Scotland but moved to Cambridge 6 months ago to start my first job so Im not ready to head home yet. He doesnt want to move down here cos hes starting a scottish teaching course next year and England just doesnt appeal to him). We have been visiting each other but I cant say this arrangement is an easy ride - we've broken up and got back together time after time, even before I moved away.

    So our relationship is turbulent shall we say, although we are slowly getting our heads around one another and things have been smoothing out. The main problems seem to be that I just don't get enough communication from him to feel loved enough quite simply - something that is definately made worse by the distance but even when we were in the same city he didnt seem to have the same need to spend time with me and was pretty anti joingin me on social ocassions. I wanted him to meet all my friends but if he wasnt in the mood that was the end of that, he is RUBBISH at sparing my feelings, which leads me onto another point:

    Feelings - he just doesnt seem to get them. Being a T myself I wouldnt say Im the most emotional person and can actually be quite cold and callous. Im also a capricorn (dont know if anyone here believes in star signs) but capricorns are meant to be very cool on the outside but with great emotional depth which pretty much sums me up. Oh and they strongly value security which tends to make them quite controlling - another stumbling block for me and my bf (I hate when he is in his own little world and Im trying to get in touch with him, he doesnt check his phone for a whole day sometimes, I just feel like hes out of reach and thats REALLY frustrating when I need him for something).

    Back to the feelings thing - it seems that I have to be right in front of him before he can tell that Im upset (which makes it hard in a long distance relationship) and sometimes even then he discounts my feelings as being silly or injust and refuses to let me express them. It seems he just makes up his own mind about whats going on and doesnt let me explain it from my side so that we can make a resolution. In fact it is quite common for him to just refuse to let me open up as he just cant be bothered with an argument...which is what hes decided will happen without even letting me speak, I actually hate arguments too so would much prefer a rational conversation. In fact, yeah, thats the problem - he makes his own decisions about things when we are having a dispute and doesnt care about what I want. He actually told me he does that because he doesnt think its fair that Im upset with him when he doesnt think hes done anything wrong so why should he give me the privilege of expressing myself? Not the most empathetic or loving!

    (I think me being extraverted makes me more equipped to picking up on peoples feelings even if I am a T, plus it means I really HAVE to express myself when I'm upset - Im really not good at dealing with things myself)

    Once an argument is started it can get very frustrating as the communication flow comes to a complete halt with the loggerheads of me wanting to express myself and seek fairness through letting him know what hes done to upset me and wanting an apology, and him not letting me talk as he thinks its unfair that Im upset in the first place and cant be bothered with an argument. We both get very viscious (both being Ts) and neither of us want to give up our side of the argument so it just blows up. There just isnt enough give and empathy once we get into a heated situation. Plus it can be a bit of a power struggle, neither of us like sucking up to the other.

    However once we both cool down we feel the sadness of having had such a big row (which often makes us hate each other and angrily yell that the relationship is over) and dont want to break up so we talk pretty rationally and it all gets sorted out really easily as we totally get eachothers logical way of explaining things.

    The S/N thing doesnt seem to come into it too much apart from I think of time in increments whereas my bf seems to think of it as one big fluid continuum which makes him a bit crap at being conscientious which really bugs me. Its not that he doesnt return calls but he just doesnt do it in a timely manner - he thinks in days when I think in hours. Oh and he does sometimes belittle me for getting so wound up by little things when there are bigger problems in the world to worry about. He also watches the news which I would've thought was an S thing, I hate the news as I find it mindless, repetitive and depressing.

    Besides all the bad stuff - we actually get on like a house on fire when we arent upset at each other and even then we can sometimes resolve things quite easily. What mainly seems to keep us together is the fact that our minds really seem to work in the same way - we have fascinatingly intelligent conversations and we love each others depth of thinking, we are really on the same wavelength in that way. I can talk to him about anything and we tend to analyse things in the same way. We also want the same things in life on the grand scale of things and both have similar values in relationships - we both take them pretty seriously. I think my bf really likes that I am so dependable as he has been cheated on in the past and is actually quite a paranoid wee soul inside. I like his introvertedness as I dont have to compete with his social life and I know he will ALWAYS want to go home early from a night out (I like socialising but am more of a morning than night person) and loves spending time with just me for days, its great to be the centre of his attention (when Im with him lol). Plus he takes relationships so seriously (probably more than me) that I know he will never cheat, its not his attention on other women I compete with its his computer!!

    He is a bit of a slob at times and I dont know if I could cope with his standards of living if we were living together but Im actually not the most anally clean person in the world either. I tend to slob out and then have a total blitz which I think is how he does it too...although his blitz probably isnt to the level of detail that mine is, I am definately the perfectionist in the relationship!

    Yeah so despite the ups and downs we actually bumble along really contentedly when we are together. We NEVER run out of conversation and I know I will never be mocked by him for how much I analyse things! He could be more forgiving but he says the same about me haha! I value material things much more than him but he still values fairness so would never take money from me unless he was really desperate and would always pay me back. In general no matter how many times we've broken up (which is always a theme being in a long distance relationship with no immediate plans to change the situation, and the amount we can clash at times which really throws us) we cant seem to shake the attraction and neither of us wants to lose the companionship we have or has any interest in being with other people. In previous relationships Ive always wondered if theres more out there - I have never been so mentally stimulated and physically satisfied. If it wasnt for the clashes (which seem to come out of nowhere and dont always happen, as I said sometimes we can resolve things fine) and if my bf was just a bit more conscientious/communicative/attentive then things would be perfect. But does perfection exist in relationships? In anything? I guess you just have to let relationships run their course and see what happens, thats what I'm doing.

    Wow that was an epic rant. See I am an S - cant miss a single detail!!

  6. #16
    Magical Array BlackCat's Avatar
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    9w8 sx/sp
    SEE Fi


    As milly said it can/does work. My dad got remarried to an ESTJ, they have been happy with each other ever since. I just couldn't tolerate her though.
    () 9w8-3w2-7w6 tritype.

    RCueI (primary Inquisition)

  7. #17
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    Long distance by its nature can make expressing love in a relationship difficult; anything expressed is not easy and can be inadequate at times, it takes dedication on both sides to be able to be successful there, it is great to hear you two connect on an intellectual level. In terms of your feelings, it is nothing wrong to talk about them, that is fine, you can say what you feel. Mostly when Iím talking about feelings, Iím talking about being careful myself, not asking of others, not even those close to me. I have some INT tendencies, that my feelings are hard to express, not easily able to express them. Long distance relationships, my emotions are hard to express anyway, but it can become emotionally exhausting after awhile on a longer distance scale, since so much of its indirect, not sure who is saying what and which events are occurring, which could explain why he doesnít realise if youíre upset until youíre right in front of him. He needs to say how he is being emotionally effected as well, being INTP, his Fe is the fourth function, not readily discuss them, which can be bad, add in the factor of introversion, contemplation of ideas is done relatively more internally and the need for regaining energy from solitude.

    The days to hourís thing, he is probably thinking of a good, precise answer and wanting to be considerate, you are right if you feel you want him to communicate more, thatís neccesary if you feel so. What nature of emotional comments do you want to hear from him?

    Having the same outlook for life and values in relationship, is a great thing. I am sure things will be good for this reason and that you two are quite accepting of each otherís analytical behaviour. You sound quite dependable, communication certainly seems to become easier as time passes, each understanding how the loved one acts better. No relationship is perfect true, it is not something that can be achieved, but both can make a great relationship and hopefully having some tension sometimes is good, it shows it is alive, rather than it lacking, which would make the relationship devoid of any meaning. With you two discussing issues, I am sure it will work out.
    Last edited by Siegfried; 03-08-2009 at 05:56 AM.

  8. #18
    Habitual Fi LineStepper Array JocktheMotie's Avatar
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    I'm an INTP and have been together with my ESTJ for several years now. I can definitely see how conflict is rampant throughout the relationship, however, what I have found is that if the INTP's quirks and idiosyncracies coincide with the ESTJ's social/personal model of behavior, it can work. I think that point is the primary reason I see us as compatible. While the typical styles are completely opposite and very prone to conflict, if you have that compatibility I think you can make it successful. While I am incredibly disorganized, I am a bit particular about my personal hygiene and cleanliness. To her, organization is part of cleanliness, and that's an avenue for conflict.

  9. #19


    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    N-S communication is different from N-N communication, make no mistake about it, but it can be rewarding. I still haven't met an SJ, however, who I was on the same wavelength with. It's always
    "No, no, I meant x"
    "x like x, you see"
    "Oh yeah, x, lol"
    "No, no, I meant x."

    Ad infinitum.
    Yes I agree, I think I met n ESFJ awhile ago. It was cool in the beginning but afterwhile, I had to get away, and I mean fast.

  10. #20
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    Have done it twice. Never again.

    The problems started for me a few months after we started sharing the same living space. The day-to-day micromanagement just wears you out. In the first relationship, I held on way to long and just got to the point of exhaustion trying to make it work.

    In the second relationship, I woke up one morning and realized my life was not my own.

    Both relationships were powerful in the beginning. In each case, I thought I found my future spouse. Both relationships went in similar directions. The second time around, I recognized what was taking place again and got away.

    I don't recommend it.

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