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Thread: Ethical dilemma

  1. #1
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    Default Ethical dilemma

    Okay... any advice or input from anyone at all about this situation will be gratefully received!

    My bestest bud in the world, my ISTP, W, has done a very silly thing. Firstly, he fell in love, and we all know how silly THAT is, don't we? Heh, but no, srsly, he fell in love anyway, with a person whom I shall all C, of indeterminate type, from California, whom he met on the Internet (we're in the UK, to clarify). C came over to the UK to visit W, and they had a ball, and were very sad when she had to go back home. Their plan was for her to come here to live in the UK with him, permanently.

    However, it seemed they just couldn't wait to go through the process properly (read: legally), so a few weeks later C just bought a one-way ticket and came here to stay. No visa, passport about to run out. No money to get back home and no intention of going home anyway.

    The situation has now become thus: her passport has expired, and as she can't work and has to keep a low profile, he's having to work his ass off to keep her. They're restricted about where they can live because it has to be with a landlord who isn't too fussy about the fact that this obviously-not-British woman doesn't have any papers to prove her right to stay on the Island.

    Whilst W's friends and family were initially enthusiastic and welcoming of C, she is now un-flavour of the month. Nobody likes her - including me. I try to make an effort for W's sake, but she's very cold, seems very bitter and grouchy, she's very cagey and won't reveal anything about herself (not even her age) but wants to know everything about other people. She's very aggressively opinionated - which in itself wouldn't be a problem if 90% of her opinions weren't transparent BS. The word 'dark' is used about her by many of W's friends and family, and many of his friends won't even allow her in their homes any more, she upsets and offends other people so badly. They've actually been kicked out of four houses themselves because nobody can bear to live with her. There are very strong suspicions that her eagerness to come here was inspired by more than genuine ardour for W... she's running away from something.

    Meanwhile, I can see W is becoming increasingly depressed, and, like ISTP's tend to under pressure and difficult situations, he's just bottling it all up and trying to soldier on, but to someone who knows him well as I do, he's clearly cracking up inside. It's becoming clear that there's trouble in paradise, as they say, but he's now implicated himself in her illegal immigration, and seems sorta stuck with her.

    W trusts me absolutely implicitly. He would never imagine that the thought is not only crossing my mind, but thumping at the door to be acted upon: inform the authorities about her and get her deported back to the USA. Her presence seems to be dragging W's life down the toilet; she's not good for him.

    But OTOH, I know that he would see me doing this as a great betrayal of trust; though perhaps in years to come he might thank me for it, I know that for a long time he'd be very angry and it would probably destroy our friendship. Also, he'd be in trouble as well as her, presumably.

    My first loyalty here, IMO, is to W. Not the law and not C, but my best bud. I want to do what's in his best interest, but I just don't know if it's my place to intervene in a case like this... after all, I could be wrong... for all I know there might be a way for them to 'fix' the immigration issues and perhaps, if she was living under less pressure, C might be less unbearable as a person... they might even be happy together for years or something. Could I be contemplating destroying not only my friendship with W, but his best shot at finding true love?

    Also, for all I know, the immgration department is run by a bunch of incompetents and even if I do grass her up, for all I know it could be that nothing happens anyway!! I'm not clued up enough on immigration law and I don't know where I could get advice without sorta, burning bridges if you get what I mean?

    What, IYO, should I do??
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  2. #2
    Senior Member JivinJeffJones's Avatar
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    Don't report her. I don't think there's an easy way out of this. They just need to break it off of their own accord. I don't say it lightly, but I think this situation is probably one where you need to keep your mouth shut and wait it out. Pieces may need to be picked up later or they may not.

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    yeah thing is, I don't think they are likely to break it off of their own accord... even if they end up hating each other, I think in their heads they're both so deep in the shit together, y'know, stuck together? And she'll stay with him as long as he'll have her because she knows she's totally dependent on him, she's no way of earning money or living at all without him.
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    "When it all comes down to dust
    I will kill you if I must
    I will help you if I can" - Leonard Cohen

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    Wow. What a mess, I'm very impressed.

    What seems best for your friend pragmatically is for this woman to be gone, it sounds like it's a real drag-down for everyone involved.

    What seems best in terms of maturity, though, is for him to bite the bullet and make decisions for himself.

    You don't want to violate his autonomy as an adult just to "save him" from his own messes. You're not his dad. You can advise him and encourage him and say you'll be there for him; but sure, if you step into his life and manage it for him, you're breaking his trust and probably destroying the friendship and also not allowing him to grow up and be responsible for the choices he has made.

    Especially an ISTP. He'd probably be embarrassed that someone had to take care of him, and resent you and himself for his lack of resolve.

    If you "save" him here, it'll only be harder next time for him. People learn and grow by dealing with situations like this. He needs to clean up his own mess.

    I think that might be the cost of love, for you, to not do it for him.

    EDIT: It doesn't matter what she does. He will get to a point where he'll have to do something about it, if he wants to be rid of her. If he doesn't, then that's his choice -- he opted for misery with her, rather than rising to the occasion of changing his life.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

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    Hm yeah, okayy... except, the longer it goes on, the worse it's gonna be for him if someone else informs on her, and the way his other friends and family are feeling, that might just happen... but also... there's the option of informing but secretly - like I say, he'd never suspect it was me unless he was told.

    I mean... maybe that IS a consequence y'know, that if you do a dumb thing like that, you're not gonna be able to get away with it for long, especially with someone who rubs everyone up the wrong way, before someone informs the authorities. What difference does it make who does it? Eh, that's an argument I don't really believe myself... but it springs to mind anyway... *sigh*
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
    I will kill you if I must
    I will help you if I can" - Leonard Cohen

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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    Okay... any advice or input from anyone at all about this situation will be gratefully received!

    My bestest bud in the world, my ISTP, W, has done a very silly thing. Firstly, he fell in love, and we all know how silly THAT is, don't we? Heh, but no, srsly, he fell in love anyway, with a person whom I shall all C, of indeterminate type, from California, whom he met on the Internet (we're in the UK, to clarify). C came over to the UK to visit W, and they had a ball, and were very sad when she had to go back home. Their plan was for her to come here to live in the UK with him, permanently.

    However, it seemed they just couldn't wait to go through the process properly (read: legally), so a few weeks later C just bought a one-way ticket and came here to stay. No visa, passport about to run out. No money to get back home and no intention of going home anyway.

    The situation has now become thus: her passport has expired, and as she can't work and has to keep a low profile, he's having to work his ass off to keep her. They're restricted about where they can live because it has to be with a landlord who isn't too fussy about the fact that this obviously-not-British woman doesn't have any papers to prove her right to stay on the Island.

    Whilst W's friends and family were initially enthusiastic and welcoming of C, she is now un-flavour of the month. Nobody likes her - including me. I try to make an effort for W's sake, but she's very cold, seems very bitter and grouchy, she's very cagey and won't reveal anything about herself (not even her age) but wants to know everything about other people. She's very aggressively opinionated - which in itself wouldn't be a problem if 90% of her opinions weren't transparent BS. The word 'dark' is used about her by many of W's friends and family, and many of his friends won't even allow her in their homes any more, she upsets and offends other people so badly. They've actually been kicked out of four houses themselves because nobody can bear to live with her. There are very strong suspicions that her eagerness to come here was inspired by more than genuine ardour for W... she's running away from something.

    Meanwhile, I can see W is becoming increasingly depressed, and, like ISTP's tend to under pressure and difficult situations, he's just bottling it all up and trying to soldier on, but to someone who knows him well as I do, he's clearly cracking up inside. It's becoming clear that there's trouble in paradise, as they say, but he's now implicated himself in her illegal immigration, and seems sorta stuck with her.

    W trusts me absolutely implicitly. He would never imagine that the thought is not only crossing my mind, but thumping at the door to be acted upon: inform the authorities about her and get her deported back to the USA. Her presence seems to be dragging W's life down the toilet; she's not good for him.

    But OTOH, I know that he would see me doing this as a great betrayal of trust; though perhaps in years to come he might thank me for it, I know that for a long time he'd be very angry and it would probably destroy our friendship. Also, he'd be in trouble as well as her, presumably.

    My first loyalty here, IMO, is to W. Not the law and not C, but my best bud. I want to do what's in his best interest, but I just don't know if it's my place to intervene in a case like this... after all, I could be wrong... for all I know there might be a way for them to 'fix' the immigration issues and perhaps, if she was living under less pressure, C might be less unbearable as a person... they might even be happy together for years or something. Could I be contemplating destroying not only my friendship with W, but his best shot at finding true love?

    Also, for all I know, the immgration department is run by a bunch of incompetents and even if I do grass her up, for all I know it could be that nothing happens anyway!! I'm not clued up enough on immigration law and I don't know where I could get advice without sorta, burning bridges if you get what I mean?

    What, IYO, should I do??
    That sounds like a shitty situation for your buddy, and I'm sorry. But, it is his situation. Be there for him as a friend, but he got himself into this, let him get out of it on his own. Just be as supportive as you can and he will appreciate it in the long run.

    Also, if all else fails and you need me to call the authorities for you, let me know, I love doing that shit.


  7. #7
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    If your loyalties lie with him you must allow him to make his own decisions and not force his hand, that does not mean you have to keep your mouth shut about the relationship or legal implications but interfering behind his back would be a betrayal even if it is with the best of intentions. People must make their own mistakes, seeing my ISFP sister continually make bad relationship choices tears my heart out at times, particularly when EVERYONE around her can see where things are headed and feels the need to tell her, what she needs is unconditional, non-judgemental support, only than will she feel able to talk about how she really feels. If your friend sees everyone around him shutting her out it will only cause him more pain and encourage him to keep everything to himself. Just be a friend and be there for him even if it hurts to watch.

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    He would probably take it as an insult to his autonomy and intelligence if you tried to take matters into your own hands. I agree with Jennifer that you just have to let him make his own mistakes. It was a terrible idea, and now he's going to learn to think before he leaps. It's a great lesson.

  9. #9
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    Yeah, okay, non-intervention it is then. I shall just have to live with the temptation!

    (but like I say, as to how he'd see what I did, that'd depend on him knowing I did it, huh?)
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
    I will kill you if I must
    I will help you if I can" - Leonard Cohen

  10. #10
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    I agree with Jennifer across the board.

    The only question, in my mind, is how willing you are to risk your friendship with W. I haven't had many friends that were willing to tell me that I was being an idiot, and the few that did... it took a while for me to appreciate them. But in the end, that's what it was.

    Doing it behind his back, to me, would permanently end a relationship. If I didn't know, it may not cause the relationship any harm, but stuff like this can come out. If not directly, then in terms of doubts. There would be no forgiveness, ever, and no forgetting.

    So, in general terms, if you are going to do something, I believe your responsibility is to W. Taking responsibility from him is not the same thing, IMO.

    He is trapped, however. But the effort is best spent guiding him to realise it himself, and that he owes it to himself to break free. That's the only way this will end positively. Ripping them apart... the impact of that might not... be well controlled. You could do more harm than you think, even if everything goes right.

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