[MBTI General] Ethical dilemma

[substitute]

Good luck with that.


Maybe it's a T thing.

LOL well it's worked in the past with him, we are usually pretty frank with each other... yeah maybe a T thing

ISTP's don't tend to be too good at taking hints. When I've told him things in a tactful way he's tended to take it as me just musing and not even noticed it was applicable to him, or he's thought I was 'just saying', and totally not understood the gravity of the situation unless I've really pressed it upon him.

 

[Totenkindly]

Hm yeah, okayy... except, the longer it goes on, the worse it's gonna be for him if someone else informs on her, and the way his other friends and family are feeling, that might just happen... but also... there's the option of informing but secretly - like I say, he'd never suspect it was me unless he was told.

You can never count on that.

In my life, I've seen that if there's a way for some detrimental secret to get out, it finally will. But maybe you feel like your relationship can survive such an admission, or that you have the ability to work through it.

You've got a good heart for your friend and want to see him avoid a crappy situation. note that my advice (as all advice does) prioritizing something, and I tend to value personal growth and overall progress on the road to emotional maturity. If your goals are more practical in nature, then maybe it will seem less important to you and you'd want a more pragmatic solution that resolves the tangible issue.

The only question, in my mind, is how willing you are to risk your friendship with W. I haven't had many friends that were willing to tell me that I was being an idiot, and the few that did... it took a while for me to appreciate them. But in the end, that's what it was....

So, in general terms, if you are going to do something, I believe your responsibility is to W. Taking responsibility from him is not the same thing, IMO.

Yup. Sub, definitely any active intervention to me would be best served by you taking things to your friend and equipping him to make his own decisions, not making a decision for him behind his back.

 

[ptgatsby]

LOL well it's worked in the past with him, we are usually pretty frank with each other... yeah maybe a T thing

ISTP's don't tend to be too good at taking hints. When I've told him things in a tactful way he's tended to take it as me just musing and not even noticed it was applicable to him, or he's thought I was 'just saying', and totally not understood the gravity of the situation unless I've really pressed it upon him.

Indeed. Hints don't work well with me either. I figure if you can't be direct enough, it doesn't mean enough to really say it out. The more direct it is, the more weight I put on it.

However, you probably don't want to approach it from a "she's bad from you". That would trigger my "good thing I don't have to care what you say" attitude.

The weakest point, if he isn't happy, is to try to relate to him that way. The more he is bottling up, the more it wants to come out. Being direct, but talking about him only, is the weakest point in his psyche (of course, I am projecting some here, but it typically is.)

If he does open up, there is going to be an ugly ball of emotions. The worst thing to do when they come out is try to direct them. He knows what he needs to do - if he didn't, there wouldn't be a tangle. So it's a matter of working through his emotions. We suck at that. Once he's through it though, the normal tendency is to have it clarify nearly instantly, at which point action tends to be swift and without remorse (/emotion). That's what you need to trigger, and the only way to do it is to let him discover the need on his own.

 

[substitute]

Indeed. Hints don't work well with me either. I figure if you can't be direct enough, it doesn't mean enough to really say it out. The more direct it is, the more weight I put on it.

Yeah that's very much his attitude too, as long as I've known him.
edit - mine too, TBH...

Once he's through it though, the normal tendency is to have it clarify nearly instantly, at which point action tends to be swift and without remorse (/emotion). That's what you need to trigger, and the only way to do it is to let him discover the need on his own.

Yeah, this, specially that part, is something I very much recognize not only of him but myself, too. The underlined part is total grokkage

Right. So, I'll get him to come over, fill him up with beer (that usually loosens his tongue and lowers the inhibitions somewhat), and have it out on the table (lolz, obviously).

 

[substitute]

Jennifer - you're right that I do tend to sorta value pragmatic solutions somewhat higher than you do, but I don't think that means I value personal growth any less.

Incidentally, I think this is an interesting case where majority opinion seems to support the idea that illegal doesn't equal immoral. Cos 'the law' sees it as my primary duty as a citizen to inform the authorities if I know of an illegal immigrant. In fact, it could even be in some cases that the law would punish me for witholding the information when they actually did find out.

The law obviously doesn't value personal growth or friendship much, eh?

 

[Lateralus]

Skillful manipulation can get him out of this.

You said others might turn C in? In that case, have a talk with your ISTP friend. Tell him that you think someone else is going to turn C in. Use this as an opportunity to try to persuade him to kick her ass to the curb. But don't be too forceful. Make sure that you explain that you wouldn't turn her in, that you're only speaking to him because you're worried about what might happen to him if the authorities are alerted to the situation. Stay positive, focus on the solution.

If he asks for the names of any individuals who might turn him in, dodge the question. You want to stay ambiguous here.

 

[ptgatsby]

Yeah, this, specially that part, is something I very much recognize not only of him but myself, too. The underlined part is total grokkage

I didn't want to just say "without emotion", because sometimes when it triggers, it is very emotional - very passionate. But it's so concentrated into motivation that is no longer resembles "emotion". Without remorse sounds more accurate to my ears (or certainly has been true for me!) For me, anyway, it overrides everything - and I mean everything. Sometimes it is positive, but in my life, it has been mostly destructive. I tend to put a big sign over those kinds of triggers, saying "handle with care".

[/derail]

 

[JivinJeffJones]

Right. So, I'll get him to come over, fill him up with beer (that usually loosens his tongue and lowers the inhibitions somewhat), and have it out on the table (lolz, obviously).

Yeah alcohol could do it. If you're sure he's really over her. A few (10) beers and then "Mate, what the hell are you doing?"

 

[substitute]

Skillful manipulation can get him out of this.

You said others might turn C in? In that case, have a talk with your ISTP friend. Tell him that you think someone else is going to turn C in. Use this as an opportunity to try to persuade him to kick her ass to the curb. But don't be too forceful. Make sure that you explain that you wouldn't turn her in, that you're only speaking to him because you're worried about what might happen to him if the authorities are alerted to the situation. Stay positive, focus on the solution.

If he asks for the names of any individuals who might turn him in, dodge the question. You want to stay ambiguous here.

Well that's pretty easy to dodge, I mean, I could even seem to answer the question whilst evading it all the same, something like "when I was at the store near you the other day I heard some people talking in the queue in front of me, one was talking about an American woman in their street that they suspected was an illegal immigrant and that they were thinking of turning her in", I could be really vague with the description of the fictional neighbour "middle aged woman, brown hair" covers probably half his street.

This is perhaps a good way to alert him to the seriousness of the situation and force him to confront it and actually realize what's at stake here regarding his own life, and question whether it's worth that to keep this woman who's obviously not making him happy. But PT's right, I've got to dodge actually making that connection myself - the one between her being there and him not being happy. I've got to just sorta lead him by the nose a bit 'til he makes it himself.

 

[Totenkindly]

...Incidentally, I think this is an interesting case where majority opinion seems to support the idea that illegal doesn't equal immoral. Cos 'the law' sees it as my primary duty as a citizen to inform the authorities if I know of an illegal immigrant. In fact, it could even be in some cases that the law would punish me for witholding the information when they actually did find out.

Good point, and it's rather amusing. I don't know if it's really that direct of a connection, it's probably more of a "this is a problem with your friend to resolve, we don't care much about the law either way, it's irrelevant."

Which is pretty much my philosophy. The law should generally be supported just to keep general order and promote social efficiency... but here it only complicates matters, and much more of the "hurt" in this situation seems to be with your friend, not the government, he's the one with the situation to resolve.

 

[disregard]

Eh.. I would avoid making things up. Maintain your credibility. It's a meaningful friendship.

 

[Lateralus]

Well that's pretty easy to dodge, I mean, I could even seem to answer the question whilst evading it all the same, something like "when I was at the store near you the other day I heard some people talking in the queue in front of me, one was talking about an American woman in their street that they suspected was an illegal immigrant and that they were thinking of turning her in", I could be really vague with the description of the fictional neighbour "middle aged woman, brown hair" covers probably half his street.

This is perhaps a good way to alert him to the seriousness of the situation and force him to confront it and actually realize what's at stake here regarding his own life, and question whether it's worth that to keep this woman who's obviously not making him happy. But PT's right, I've got to dodge actually making that connection myself - the one between her being there and him not being happy. I've got to just sorta lead him by the nose a bit 'til he makes it himself.

That's part of skillful manipulation, making someone think your idea is actually their idea. It's a skill that comes in useful when selling something like say...used cars.

 

[ptgatsby]

This is perhaps a good way to alert him to the seriousness of the situation and force him to confront it and actually realize what's at stake here regarding his own life, and question whether it's worth that to keep this woman who's obviously not making him happy. But PT's right, I've got to dodge actually making that connection myself - the one between her being there and him not being happy. I've got to just sorta lead him by the nose a bit 'til he makes it himself.

The two can combine well, if you decide to take a more direct hand. You aren't limiting your options so long as you are excessively forceful with the "it is your choice, but common, talk to me" speech.

By coming to him and injecting the concept that what he is doing puts them both at risk, and that the risk is now tangible (a lot of people seem prone to doing something about it, including strangers), you may be able to get him to do something. Just be careful that something isn't "I'm keeping her no matter what". So the "I'm not happy with her" must come first, otherwise it could backfire in the worst kind of way.

In general, however, tell him that if he needs something (try to time it to imply that you will do whatever he himself is unable to do, such as turn her in), you'll do it, no question - but that you won't do it otherwise. By introducing both things (you won't do it without his permission, but you'll do anything he needs), you maximise your options, introduce the triggers and outs for him and give yourself credibility.

(I'm still strategizing in my mind, but that's likely the dominant one, given all the factors you have mentioned, and your priority over them.)

 

[substitute]

yeah disregard, I tend to keep the fibs to a minimum if possible, but when you're good at it (=better Ne ) it can be very effective...

I wonder if there's anyone who would sincerely argue that my prime duty was as a citizen of the UK, to inform on her? That I was immoral for not doing? I'd find it fascinating to hear their argument...

 

[Totenkindly]

I didn't want to just say "without emotion", because sometimes when it triggers, it is very emotional - very passionate. But it's so concentrated into motivation that is no longer resembles "emotion". Without remorse sounds more accurate to my ears (or certainly has been true for me!) For me, anyway, it overrides everything - and I mean everything. Sometimes it is positive, but in my life, it has been mostly destructive. I tend to put a big sign over those kinds of triggers, saying "handle with care".

... I know what you mean in the sense that when the whole of a very emotional situation locks into place, suddenly everything becomes clear. It is literally like watching the jumble of the world drop into a coherent pattern, and I know exactly what I need to do and I'm not going to waste any more time being confused again, I suddenly unmoor the boat and steer straight ahead.

One significant example I remember even when young was when the person I was planning to marry (young love, crazy stuff ya know!) had been infringing on my autonomy and I had fallen out of love with them but they were intrusive and nagging and paranoid and emotionally I was just so confused and upset and torn but didn't know how to evaluate it or make sense of it or open up about it... and then one night they called to bitch me out about going to a movie with my friends and insinuated I might be cheating on them... and I just cut them loose right there on the phone. There was no going back, either; they pleaded with me for an hour, but I was done. I just knew what had to be done, and I didn't even regret doing it, I was a machine -- cool, collected and entirely adamant.

And you know how indecisive I typically am.

So just be careful; if you do "trigger" your friend, something will happen and it's out of your control.

That's part of skillful manipulation, making someone think your idea is actually their idea. It's a skill that comes in useful when selling something like say...used cars.

You psycho. I'm gonna have to watch myself around you now!
(especially cause the last thing I need is another junker in front of my apt.)

 

[Bella]

I don't think you should get rid of her behind his back but you should sit him down and spell things out nicely, for him, I think he'll appreciate straightforward input. You say he's soldiering on but I can almost guarantee you he will be too relieved if someone will give him "permission" to bail on the situation. On top of taking responsibility for her to the extreme, he might be worried about what the rest of his friends will think if he doesn't act "honourably". I think you should tell him what you wanna do and make him your accomplice.
And tell him the world won't come to an end because he supposedly shirked his responsibilities to a no-good little tramp that wasn't into him in any case.

 

[substitute]

You say he's soldiering on but I can almost guarantee you he will be too relieved if someone will give him "permission" to bail on the situation.

good point!

 

[ThatsWhatHeSaid]

If I was in your shoes, I would broach the topic gently. "How're things working out for you?" I would mention a few positive things about their relationship first. "You seem really similar on the _____ level and you share a _____." Then I could start to inquire about difficulties. I'd prolly start by stating what I observe and ask him if it's accurate. "So, I've noticed you seem kind of fragile and unsettled. Is that accurate?" He's probably thinking to himself "I can't admit to myself that things aren't working because she's here, and because I don't want to go down that path." So, I'd say something like "you know, it's okay if you're not 100% sure about things or totally enjoying everything right now. You're still getting to know each other and under a lot of external stress. No one gets along perfectly." Then I'd gently mine the things that might be bothering him about her. It might take a few conversations, not just one. The most important thing is declaring your intent and really not trying to oust her, just trying to assist your friend.

 

[Bella]

good point!

Uh-huh, I think guilt and a stupidly inflated sense of resonsibility have replaced any true feelings their might have been.

 

[disregard]

You say he's soldiering on but I can almost guarantee you he will be too relieved if someone will give him "permission" to bail on the situation.

It's dangerous to assume things like this.