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Thread: Ethical dilemma

  1. #31
    mrs disregard's Avatar
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    Eh.. I would avoid making things up. Maintain your credibility. It's a meaningful friendship.

  2. #32
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    Well that's pretty easy to dodge, I mean, I could even seem to answer the question whilst evading it all the same, something like "when I was at the store near you the other day I heard some people talking in the queue in front of me, one was talking about an American woman in their street that they suspected was an illegal immigrant and that they were thinking of turning her in", I could be really vague with the description of the fictional neighbour "middle aged woman, brown hair" covers probably half his street.

    This is perhaps a good way to alert him to the seriousness of the situation and force him to confront it and actually realize what's at stake here regarding his own life, and question whether it's worth that to keep this woman who's obviously not making him happy. But PT's right, I've got to dodge actually making that connection myself - the one between her being there and him not being happy. I've got to just sorta lead him by the nose a bit 'til he makes it himself.
    That's part of skillful manipulation, making someone think your idea is actually their idea. It's a skill that comes in useful when selling something like say...used cars.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  3. #33
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    This is perhaps a good way to alert him to the seriousness of the situation and force him to confront it and actually realize what's at stake here regarding his own life, and question whether it's worth that to keep this woman who's obviously not making him happy. But PT's right, I've got to dodge actually making that connection myself - the one between her being there and him not being happy. I've got to just sorta lead him by the nose a bit 'til he makes it himself.
    The two can combine well, if you decide to take a more direct hand. You aren't limiting your options so long as you are excessively forceful with the "it is your choice, but common, talk to me" speech.

    By coming to him and injecting the concept that what he is doing puts them both at risk, and that the risk is now tangible (a lot of people seem prone to doing something about it, including strangers), you may be able to get him to do something. Just be careful that something isn't "I'm keeping her no matter what". So the "I'm not happy with her" must come first, otherwise it could backfire in the worst kind of way.

    In general, however, tell him that if he needs something (try to time it to imply that you will do whatever he himself is unable to do, such as turn her in), you'll do it, no question - but that you won't do it otherwise. By introducing both things (you won't do it without his permission, but you'll do anything he needs), you maximise your options, introduce the triggers and outs for him and give yourself credibility.

    (I'm still strategizing in my mind, but that's likely the dominant one, given all the factors you have mentioned, and your priority over them.)
    Last edited by ptgatsby; 10-17-2008 at 10:23 AM. Reason: edit: word use

  4. #34
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    yeah disregard, I tend to keep the fibs to a minimum if possible, but when you're good at it (=better Ne ) it can be very effective...

    I wonder if there's anyone who would sincerely argue that my prime duty was as a citizen of the UK, to inform on her? That I was immoral for not doing? I'd find it fascinating to hear their argument...
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  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    I didn't want to just say "without emotion", because sometimes when it triggers, it is very emotional - very passionate. But it's so concentrated into motivation that is no longer resembles "emotion". Without remorse sounds more accurate to my ears (or certainly has been true for me!) For me, anyway, it overrides everything - and I mean everything. Sometimes it is positive, but in my life, it has been mostly destructive. I tend to put a big sign over those kinds of triggers, saying "handle with care".
    ... I know what you mean in the sense that when the whole of a very emotional situation locks into place, suddenly everything becomes clear. It is literally like watching the jumble of the world drop into a coherent pattern, and I know exactly what I need to do and I'm not going to waste any more time being confused again, I suddenly unmoor the boat and steer straight ahead.

    One significant example I remember even when young was when the person I was planning to marry (young love, crazy stuff ya know!) had been infringing on my autonomy and I had fallen out of love with them but they were intrusive and nagging and paranoid and emotionally I was just so confused and upset and torn but didn't know how to evaluate it or make sense of it or open up about it... and then one night they called to bitch me out about going to a movie with my friends and insinuated I might be cheating on them... and I just cut them loose right there on the phone. There was no going back, either; they pleaded with me for an hour, but I was done. I just knew what had to be done, and I didn't even regret doing it, I was a machine -- cool, collected and entirely adamant.

    And you know how indecisive I typically am.

    So just be careful; if you do "trigger" your friend, something will happen and it's out of your control.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    That's part of skillful manipulation, making someone think your idea is actually their idea. It's a skill that comes in useful when selling something like say...used cars.
    You psycho. I'm gonna have to watch myself around you now!
    (especially cause the last thing I need is another junker in front of my apt.)
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #36
    Senior Member Bella's Avatar
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    I don't think you should get rid of her behind his back but you should sit him down and spell things out nicely, for him, I think he'll appreciate straightforward input. You say he's soldiering on but I can almost guarantee you he will be too relieved if someone will give him "permission" to bail on the situation. On top of taking responsibility for her to the extreme, he might be worried about what the rest of his friends will think if he doesn't act "honourably". I think you should tell him what you wanna do and make him your accomplice.
    And tell him the world won't come to an end because he supposedly shirked his responsibilities to a no-good little tramp that wasn't into him in any case.
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  7. #37
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bella View Post
    You say he's soldiering on but I can almost guarantee you he will be too relieved if someone will give him "permission" to bail on the situation.
    good point!
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

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  8. #38
    Senior Member ThatsWhatHeSaid's Avatar
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    If I was in your shoes, I would broach the topic gently. "How're things working out for you?" I would mention a few positive things about their relationship first. "You seem really similar on the _____ level and you share a _____." Then I could start to inquire about difficulties. I'd prolly start by stating what I observe and ask him if it's accurate. "So, I've noticed you seem kind of fragile and unsettled. Is that accurate?" He's probably thinking to himself "I can't admit to myself that things aren't working because she's here, and because I don't want to go down that path." So, I'd say something like "you know, it's okay if you're not 100% sure about things or totally enjoying everything right now. You're still getting to know each other and under a lot of external stress. No one gets along perfectly." Then I'd gently mine the things that might be bothering him about her. It might take a few conversations, not just one. The most important thing is declaring your intent and really not trying to oust her, just trying to assist your friend.

  9. #39
    Senior Member Bella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    good point!
    Uh-huh, I think guilt and a stupidly inflated sense of resonsibility have replaced any true feelings their might have been.
    yesiknowimamiserablegrouchnowgoawayovmeleor

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  10. #40
    mrs disregard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bella
    You say he's soldiering on but I can almost guarantee you he will be too relieved if someone will give him "permission" to bail on the situation.
    It's dangerous to assume things like this.

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