[MBTI General] Ethical dilemma

[ptgatsby]

I just knew what had to be done, and I didn't even regret doing it, I was a machine -- cool, collected and entirely adamant.

So just be careful; if you do "trigger" your friend, something will happen and it's out of your control.

That's a good example, but the depth really depends on the person. Breaking off a friendship is the tip of the iceberg of what can happen when that frame of mind happens.

I only bring this up because I know that in my own past, any concept of someone manipulating and trapping me can cause very destructive situations. The situation his friend is in could make him less stable, and given the possible ramifications of law/etc... yah. Worth taking note of

 

[substitute]

I dunno Edahn, I think that's maybe all a bit too subtle for him...

Ha, I was just thinking, the only thing C's told us about her life in the USA is that she was apparently, an accountant. An immediate rat was smelled when we sat down to play Scrabble and she not only objected to me keeping scores and continuously checked up on me to make sure I wasn't cheating her out of points, but she then insisted on taking over the score-keeping herself.... and had to get a calculator out of her bag. A calculator. For simple addition of double figure numbers. An accountant. Right.

 

[ptgatsby]

A calculator. For simple addition of double figure numbers. An accountant. Right.

My dad is an accountant and does that - and my wife is in training to do one, and does that. FWIW

 

[Bella]

It's dangerous to assume things like this.

Well, he is ISTP and I'm ISTJ and if we are even a little the same it would be safe to say that he is hanging in there for the sake of doing the 'right thing' and not wanting to dissapoint anyone involved. I have held on to bad frienships just because it's "not nice" to diss someone or turn your back on them. BUT THEY WERE NO-GOOD PEOPLE. And then you really do need someone to remind you that you don't have to carry everyone and their burdens.
It's sounds a bit lame, I know, but that's how it goes.

 

[disregard]

it would be safe to say that he is hanging in there for the sake of doing the 'right thing' and not wanting to dissapoint anyone involved.

It would be safe to say that if you knew him and he had a history of such behavior, but you can't assert such things if you don't know the person.

 

[Jack Flak]

Well, he is ISTP and I'm ISTJ and if we are even a little the same it would be safe to say that he is hanging in there for the sake of doing the 'right thing' and not wanting to dissapoint anyone involved.

That's not the typical ISTP mindset. In this regard, ISTJ and ISTP have nothing in common.

 

[Bella]

It would be safe to say that if you knew him and he had a history of such behavior, but you can't assert such things if you don't know the person.

Okayyyy, I gave my two cents, like everyone else.

 

[ptgatsby]

Okayyyy, I gave my two cents, like everyone else.

FWIW, I agree with you I have that tendency too, and I'm pretty strongly P. I think it's just the concept that we can be responsible too that people scoff at. It really just depends on the ISTP, but what you say certainly reflects my own past.

But you probably still don't want to depend on me to be there on time I have my limits on responsibility!

 

[disregard]

Sorry Bella, didn't mean to make you feel shouted down.

 

[Totenkindly]

Well, he is ISTP and I'm ISTJ and if we are even a little the same it would be safe to say that he is hanging in there for the sake of doing the 'right thing' and not wanting to dissapoint anyone involved.

Yeah, regardless of type usually there is some of that in everyone.

Although I think ISTPs (Ti) tend to be less like that and ISTJs (Si) are more like that. The former likes to do what "makes general sense" while the latter is more likely to base their sense of what should be done based on past experience and expectation.

I have held on to bad frienships just because it's "not nice" to diss someone or turn your back on them. BUT THEY WERE NO-GOOD PEOPLE. And then you really do need someone to remind you that you don't have to carry everyone and their burdens.

I totally agree, and it does not help that even when I've made a "rational decision" to cut someone loose, emotionally I know I sometimes STILL feel guilty and like I let myself or others down because I ended things.

 

[Bella]

Sorry Bella, didn't mean to make you feel shouted down.

Cool by the pool!

 

[substitute]

re. ISTP and responsibility - I don't think he's so much bothered about being seen as responsible, but honorable, definitely. It would very much bother him to feel that people think of him as somebody who can't be trusted; despite being slack in taking responsibility with his own affairs and personal life etc, he does stick by his word with other people and means what he says, etc. and would feel pretty insulted to have it suggested otherwise...

 

[Ivy]

This is a rough spot to be in, for you and for your friend. I would be VERY suspicious of her motives as well, from what you've reported about her behavior. I don't think I would inform on her, though, if for no other reason than I wouldn't want to get my friend in trouble. I don't know jack about immigration law, though- if it turned out that he wouldn't suffer any legal aftereffects himself, I'd be tempted. But most likely I still wouldn't, for the reason others have stated: it's his mess and if he doesn't make the decision to clean it up himself it's possible it could backfire.

Ouch, though, really. This sucks. I'm sorry you have to witness your friend mucking up his life like this.

 

[Anja]

I'm empathetic about your concern for your friend sub. It's a real downer to watch someone you love making a large mistake as your friend has done.

My experience has been that any attempt for me to try to make change in other people's lives, unless it is spontaneously asked for has ended in regret.

Not my job, ya know.

When I said "spontaneously" that also means not attempting to manipulate your friend into asking for help! Hear that?

Or as someone told me recently when I was pondering an issue I have with how much mothering to inflict on my son, "You don't want to insult his competence, do you? And you don't want to rob him of the opportunity to learn from his mistakes, do you?"

I heard that. Sigh.

 

[Ivy]

Somebody tell my mom that? She's still mothering my 22 year old brother. A lot.

 

[Anja]

Ivy, mine's thirty-two and I might be finally getting it!

 

[Tallulah]

I think it's a terrible idea to inform on this woman behind your friend's back, even if it's for his own good. He has to be the one to make that decision. It's fine to talk to him about it and help him to clarify his own feelings for her, but I know if a friend of mine went behind my back on something that important, it would probably be the end of the friendship. Because who are they to decide without my input, what's best for my life?

If you do decide to talk to him about it, definitely keep it honest. Don't make up situations that aren't true to scare him into turning her in. At least take full responsibility and own up to the fact that you are the one that's a bit concerned about her. You might suggest to him that keeping her there without papers is likely to get HIM into legal trouble. I don't think anyone would reasonably be upset at having that fact pointed out to them.

 

[Anja]

Don't we get a response, sub?

 

[substitute]

yeah sure, when there's something to report

 

[Anja]

You made a choice how to handle it?