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Thread: Ethical dilemma

  1. #21
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JivinJeffJones View Post
    Good luck with that.


    Maybe it's a T thing.
    LOL well it's worked in the past with him, we are usually pretty frank with each other... yeah maybe a T thing

    ISTP's don't tend to be too good at taking hints. When I've told him things in a tactful way he's tended to take it as me just musing and not even noticed it was applicable to him, or he's thought I was 'just saying', and totally not understood the gravity of the situation unless I've really pressed it upon him.
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    Hm yeah, okayy... except, the longer it goes on, the worse it's gonna be for him if someone else informs on her, and the way his other friends and family are feeling, that might just happen... but also... there's the option of informing but secretly - like I say, he'd never suspect it was me unless he was told.
    You can never count on that.

    In my life, I've seen that if there's a way for some detrimental secret to get out, it finally will. But maybe you feel like your relationship can survive such an admission, or that you have the ability to work through it.

    You've got a good heart for your friend and want to see him avoid a crappy situation. note that my advice (as all advice does) prioritizing something, and I tend to value personal growth and overall progress on the road to emotional maturity. If your goals are more practical in nature, then maybe it will seem less important to you and you'd want a more pragmatic solution that resolves the tangible issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    The only question, in my mind, is how willing you are to risk your friendship with W. I haven't had many friends that were willing to tell me that I was being an idiot, and the few that did... it took a while for me to appreciate them. But in the end, that's what it was....

    So, in general terms, if you are going to do something, I believe your responsibility is to W. Taking responsibility from him is not the same thing, IMO.
    Yup. Sub, definitely any active intervention to me would be best served by you taking things to your friend and equipping him to make his own decisions, not making a decision for him behind his back.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

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  3. #23
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    LOL well it's worked in the past with him, we are usually pretty frank with each other... yeah maybe a T thing

    ISTP's don't tend to be too good at taking hints. When I've told him things in a tactful way he's tended to take it as me just musing and not even noticed it was applicable to him, or he's thought I was 'just saying', and totally not understood the gravity of the situation unless I've really pressed it upon him.
    Indeed. Hints don't work well with me either. I figure if you can't be direct enough, it doesn't mean enough to really say it out. The more direct it is, the more weight I put on it.

    However, you probably don't want to approach it from a "she's bad from you". That would trigger my "good thing I don't have to care what you say" attitude.

    The weakest point, if he isn't happy, is to try to relate to him that way. The more he is bottling up, the more it wants to come out. Being direct, but talking about him only, is the weakest point in his psyche (of course, I am projecting some here, but it typically is.)

    If he does open up, there is going to be an ugly ball of emotions. The worst thing to do when they come out is try to direct them. He knows what he needs to do - if he didn't, there wouldn't be a tangle. So it's a matter of working through his emotions. We suck at that. Once he's through it though, the normal tendency is to have it clarify nearly instantly, at which point action tends to be swift and without remorse (/emotion). That's what you need to trigger, and the only way to do it is to let him discover the need on his own.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Indeed. Hints don't work well with me either. I figure if you can't be direct enough, it doesn't mean enough to really say it out. The more direct it is, the more weight I put on it.
    Yeah that's very much his attitude too, as long as I've known him.
    edit - mine too, TBH...

    Once he's through it though, the normal tendency is to have it clarify nearly instantly, at which point action tends to be swift and without remorse (/emotion). That's what you need to trigger, and the only way to do it is to let him discover the need on his own.
    Yeah, this, specially that part, is something I very much recognize not only of him but myself, too. The underlined part is total grokkage

    Right. So, I'll get him to come over, fill him up with beer (that usually loosens his tongue and lowers the inhibitions somewhat), and have it out on the table (lolz, obviously).
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

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  5. #25
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    Jennifer - you're right that I do tend to sorta value pragmatic solutions somewhat higher than you do, but I don't think that means I value personal growth any less.

    Incidentally, I think this is an interesting case where majority opinion seems to support the idea that illegal doesn't equal immoral. Cos 'the law' sees it as my primary duty as a citizen to inform the authorities if I know of an illegal immigrant. In fact, it could even be in some cases that the law would punish me for witholding the information when they actually did find out.

    The law obviously doesn't value personal growth or friendship much, eh?
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
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    I will help you if I can" - Leonard Cohen

  6. #26
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Skillful manipulation can get him out of this.

    You said others might turn C in? In that case, have a talk with your ISTP friend. Tell him that you think someone else is going to turn C in. Use this as an opportunity to try to persuade him to kick her ass to the curb. But don't be too forceful. Make sure that you explain that you wouldn't turn her in, that you're only speaking to him because you're worried about what might happen to him if the authorities are alerted to the situation. Stay positive, focus on the solution.

    If he asks for the names of any individuals who might turn him in, dodge the question. You want to stay ambiguous here.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  7. #27
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    Yeah, this, specially that part, is something I very much recognize not only of him but myself, too. The underlined part is total grokkage
    I didn't want to just say "without emotion", because sometimes when it triggers, it is very emotional - very passionate. But it's so concentrated into motivation that is no longer resembles "emotion". Without remorse sounds more accurate to my ears (or certainly has been true for me!) For me, anyway, it overrides everything - and I mean everything. Sometimes it is positive, but in my life, it has been mostly destructive. I tend to put a big sign over those kinds of triggers, saying "handle with care".

    [/derail]

  8. #28
    Senior Member JivinJeffJones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    Right. So, I'll get him to come over, fill him up with beer (that usually loosens his tongue and lowers the inhibitions somewhat), and have it out on the table (lolz, obviously).
    Yeah alcohol could do it. If you're sure he's really over her. A few (10) beers and then "Mate, what the hell are you doing?"

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Skillful manipulation can get him out of this.

    You said others might turn C in? In that case, have a talk with your ISTP friend. Tell him that you think someone else is going to turn C in. Use this as an opportunity to try to persuade him to kick her ass to the curb. But don't be too forceful. Make sure that you explain that you wouldn't turn her in, that you're only speaking to him because you're worried about what might happen to him if the authorities are alerted to the situation. Stay positive, focus on the solution.

    If he asks for the names of any individuals who might turn him in, dodge the question. You want to stay ambiguous here.
    Well that's pretty easy to dodge, I mean, I could even seem to answer the question whilst evading it all the same, something like "when I was at the store near you the other day I heard some people talking in the queue in front of me, one was talking about an American woman in their street that they suspected was an illegal immigrant and that they were thinking of turning her in", I could be really vague with the description of the fictional neighbour "middle aged woman, brown hair" covers probably half his street.

    This is perhaps a good way to alert him to the seriousness of the situation and force him to confront it and actually realize what's at stake here regarding his own life, and question whether it's worth that to keep this woman who's obviously not making him happy. But PT's right, I've got to dodge actually making that connection myself - the one between her being there and him not being happy. I've got to just sorta lead him by the nose a bit 'til he makes it himself.
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
    I will kill you if I must
    I will help you if I can" - Leonard Cohen

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    ...Incidentally, I think this is an interesting case where majority opinion seems to support the idea that illegal doesn't equal immoral. Cos 'the law' sees it as my primary duty as a citizen to inform the authorities if I know of an illegal immigrant. In fact, it could even be in some cases that the law would punish me for witholding the information when they actually did find out.
    Good point, and it's rather amusing. I don't know if it's really that direct of a connection, it's probably more of a "this is a problem with your friend to resolve, we don't care much about the law either way, it's irrelevant."

    Which is pretty much my philosophy. The law should generally be supported just to keep general order and promote social efficiency... but here it only complicates matters, and much more of the "hurt" in this situation seems to be with your friend, not the government, he's the one with the situation to resolve.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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