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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by persianeyes View Post
    You have no right to insult a religious figure and anothers beliefs in such a rude and ignorant way..
    If you don't believe Prophet Mohammad is an ENTJ all you have to do is say so.. not give a huge idiotic speach about what you think about him.
    Quote Originally Posted by IlyaK1986 View Post
    I am sorry but no.

    If this man believed in efficiency, he would not have his religion kill so many amongst itself and abroad, and Islamic society would be far more advanced than it is today if it really followed an ENTJ.

    I believe that anyone that's a religious nutcase is automatically disqualified from being a T. The key part about us rationals is that we think of how to improve systems and make them more efficient, not just believe some invisible man will do it.

    Those who follow ENTJs are, or become NTs themselves. You just have to look at the result of Mohammed's work to see that he was anything but an NT.

    Or so I believe.
    He's an ESTJ, not an ENTJ.

    Under the premise that followers define the leader, ever heard the old complaint: "I would be a great leader were it not for these idiots that I have to lead"

    You can argue that he led his followers to do crap,

    while at the same time he was not living for his followers, but for God and these jokers were assuming they're following a great leader, defining religion according to what they think is right instead of putting the facts out on the table.

    As for you, it is easy to define what leadership characteristics and behaviours, and consequent actions of followers, might be in an ideal universe (flawlessly executed strategy, truly stratospheric satisfaction levels, boundless enthusiasm and so forth). Ding dong...we don't live in an ideal universe - leaders regularly fall short of expectations and followers do anything but follow.

    Hence, to conclude that the followers are really following Muhammad would be dismissing the fact that they all are driven by their respective personalities and approach to life and religion - can't always pin it on a man that had lived over 1400 years' ago and in my opinion, lived for his present moment and not intuitively. If his primary mode of living was Intuitive and Thinking, it would certainly produce a healthy, stable and efficient society in the long-run - that I concur with.

  2. #52
    THREADKILLER Prototype's Avatar
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    Not to sound rude, but what was the point of this thread?... I find it easier to live my life by not comparing/manifesting different social types.

  3. #53
    Senior Member LunarMoon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    I read your post, and I think you've got ENTP's wrong. You seem to think ENTP's can't lead large organizations which is way off since ENTP is the most natural entrepenuer type.
    According to this Big Five study the majority of successful entrepreneurs possess high Conscientiousness with a secondary bias towards low Openness to Experience. In MBTI terms that most likely translates into ESTJ. This seems to agree with MBTI surveys that have shown the commonality of executive and high ranking business men to rank as so:

    ESTJ
    ISTJ
    ENTJ
    INTJ

    (Note: ENTPs possess low Conscientiousness and high Openness to Experience so they already have two of the five traits working against them, with Conscientiousness being the most important of them.)

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    (We have to disagree about Bill Gates too, who is an ENTP.)
    That doesnít explain the dominant Thinking preference inherent in his communication style, my previously posted question of how a Perceiver would be able to handle the need for a committed decision throughout a corporate organizational structure, or how an ENTP, a non-Thinking dominant type without any particular ability to handle money, would be able to carefully allocate resources during the beginning stages of a small business.

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    Also the promoter type is ESTP, so among NT's the type most like this is ENTP.
    The type thatís most similar to ESTPs are actually ENTJs. Both types possess the In-Charge personality style and the ENTJs tertiary Se gives them Artesian-esque behavior to the point where even MBTI experts are likely to confuse them. ENTPs donít even show any indication of Se until you get to their second to last function.

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    If you are an ENTJ slob though you are a rarity, because I've never met an ENTJ who carried themself as a slob.
    The chance of you knowing multiple ENTJs is very, very slim unless you're in a demographically concentrated area such as computer science.

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    Tesla on the other hand is known for not sharing many of his ideas with people, and instead just keeping it all in his head.
    Tesla was unusually exhibitionist for a scientist. He often invited his friends, Mark Twain included, to witness many of his inventions and would frequently brag about his supposed ability to split the Earth in half if he wished to. There are very few scientists who would go on to share this idea with people largely because they would be shunned and designated as eccentrics, which is exactly what happened to Tesla.

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    Ni is the function that is adept at projecting into the future.
    Ni is the function adept at predicting the future. Simply being ahead of your time doesnít mean that youíre an INTJ.

  4. #54
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    As little as I know about Eisenhower and Ford (US presidents), I have heard they're both INTP and I tend to agree, because they did nothing when nothing was necessary to be done.

  5. #55
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    Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand is suppose to come out in a film version next year.

    Any thoughts on Rand?

  6. #56
    Wonderer Samuel De Mazarin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 01011010 View Post
    Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand is suppose to come out in a film version next year.

    Any thoughts on Rand?
    incredibly versatile mind which was straight-jacketed by idealism... I say idealism because while she calls herself an objectivist she was basically trying to force the world into a very straight-forward schema (that incidentally lost its heart).

    She was also an incredibly good writer... I mean, philosophy aside, when I read Atlas Shrugged I was hooked... and that's no mean feat since the woman wrote tomes...

    She also had great influence on the world... I mean, people as high-up as Alan Greenspan were devoted peoples of hers and there's no telling how many people in politics ascribe to her viewpoint.
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  7. #57
    Alexander the Terrible yenom's Avatar
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    The type thatís most similar to ESTPs are actually ENTJs. Both types possess the In-Charge personality style and the ENTJs tertiary Se gives them Artesian-esque behavior to the point where even MBTI experts are likely to confuse them. ENTPs donít even show any indication of Se until you get to their second to last function.
    I disagree. ENTJs use Se as often as ENTPs use Fe. Both types do not know how use to these functrions properly.

    ENTPs possess low Conscientiousness and high Openness to Experience so they already have two of the five traits working against them, with Conscientiousness being the most important of them.
    Low conscientiousness and high openess to experience is an EP trait, making estp's more similar to entps than entjs.

    That doesnít explain the dominant Thinking preference inherent in his communication style, my previously posted question of how a Perceiver would be able to handle the need for a committed decision throughout a corporate organizational structure, or how an ENTP, a non-Thinking dominant type without any particular ability to handle money, would be able to carefully allocate resources during the beginning stages of a small business.
    I agree with this. However, one of bills gates nemesis, Larry Ellison, is an entp.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    As little as I know about Eisenhower and Ford (US presidents), I have heard they're both INTP and I tend to agree, because they did nothing when nothing was necessary to be done.
    By that logic, Calvin Coolidge had to be INTP as well.

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  9. #59
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LunarMoon View Post
    That doesnít explain the dominant Thinking preference inherent in his communication style, my previously posted question of how a Perceiver would be able to handle the need for a committed decision throughout a corporate organizational structure, or how an ENTP, a non-Thinking dominant type without any particular ability to handle money, would be able to carefully allocate resources during the beginning stages of a small business.
    Ok this whole paragraph is nuts. For example everyday I go to work in a room with about 100 accountants and actuaries, and we all handle money quite well. There are a variety of types there too with plenty of both TP's and TJ's. What is more nuts about this paragraph is that Warren Buffet is an ENTP. If he doesn't know how to handle money, then who does?

    Instead of addressing every part of your post point by point though I'd like to instead address the underlying issue. I'd like to explain ENTP's here and their role in the business environment (especially when compared to ENTJ's).

    ENTP's are actually a whole lot like ENTJ's in a lot of ways. Both are NT's so they going to be interested in things like science, technology, and all sorts of abstract ideas and theories. Additionally both are extraverts, so they have similar motivations and interests when contrasted with the INTx types. Both are interested in things like leadership, achievement, success, and in general having an impact on the world around them (although they might have different standards by which they measure these things). Both tend to see the application of ideas as more important than the ideas themselves. (In contrast INTx types tend to see the idea as more imporant, and the application is there to illustrate the importance of the idea.)

    If you are going to look at how an ENTJ accomplishes something, then the type they are most like is the INTJ. They share the same functions, so they do things in the most similar fashion. However if you look at what an ENTJ does, then the type they are most like is the ENTP. Both types have similar motivations and want to achieve similar goals, but the way that they achieve those goals is where they differ.

    In the context of business an ENTJ accomplishes his goals with a focus on Thinking while using Intuition to support the primary function of Thinking. This means that the ENTJ will want to focus on things like maximizing productivity, minimizing costs, improving quality, and in general making his company the most efficient company possible. Intuition is there to give the ENTJ a big picture perspective of his whole company and to help spot problems that other people may have missed. Intuition is useful, but it's ultimately used to support Thinking.

    An ENTP on the other hand approaches business with a focus on Intuition. This might mean they have a unique insight into an old business, but it usually means trying something new. It might be a new product, a new industry, or a new approach to an old product. In general the ENTP focuses on cleverness, insight, and novel ideas, and then uses thinking to try to make these unusual ideas work out somehow.

    For example Warren Buffet, an ENTP, succeeds because he knows how to pick stocks better than anyone else. His business is not successful because of amazing efficiency, and there is no explicit science to how he picks stocks, otherwise a lot more people could replicate his results. Instead he relies more on insight, and then he uses thinking to check that his insights are sound.

    In the case of Bill Gates and Microsoft, their success is due to being the first company in the software industry. Before Bill Gates everyone thought that the money was in hardware. He had the idea of licensing software and turning it into a marketable product. The success of Microsoft has more to do with Gates' cleverness than his ability to maximize efficiency. A thinker's approach would be to make the best product possible and maximize the efficiency of the company. That is more similar to Apple's approach. Microsoft on the other hand is characterized by using tricks to force out competition and maintain monopoly-like control. Clever tricks are more of a hallmark of ENTP's than ENTJ's.

    Likewise on the case of Edison the very fact that his company is focused on creating patents practically guarantees he's an ENTP. A company focused on cranking out new ideas and products is basically an ENTP dream. His approach to beating AC current was to trick people into thinking it was evil (by associating it with the electric chair). Again the focus on cleverness and trickery is more of a hallmark of ENTP.
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  10. #60
    Alexander the Terrible yenom's Avatar
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    I disagree with Warren Buffet being an entp. Warren buffet's investment strategy is extremely risk averse, and focus much more on analysis and logic than random intuition. So this rules Ne out. He would be much more likely an IXTJ.

    As for Bill gates, his company is much less innovative than apple. He beats apple using innovative strategy, but nevertheless there is still a significant chance he is not an ENTP. Bill gates is a person that trusts his thinking more than experience. He makes contingency plans rather than trying to improvise and learn from experience. And his systematic improvement of an outdated product like dos and windows, stresses more on efficency rather than innovaitng something completely new, again a NTJ thing.

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