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  1. #41
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    How many people have entertained the notion that Nietzsche was an F?
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    How many people have entertained the notion that Nietzsche was an F?
    ""--Friedrich Nietsche

  3. #43
    Senior Member LunarMoon's Avatar
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    Sorry for the late response time; I’ve been kept busy throughout the week so I haven’t had time to browse.

    Quote Originally Posted by MerkW View Post
    I am not exactly sure what you mean when you say that Edison was more of a calculating person than Tesla. Quite the contrary, as previously mentioned, Edison spent virtually no time with calculations before he began building--he would simply go ahead and tinker around with mechanics. Tesla, on the other hand, made sure to visualize a model and perform all of the mathematical calculations before he began working.
    As far as their methods of invention goes Tesla was by far the more economic one while Edison basically relied on trial and error experiments. In sheer business practice, however, it would be difficult to find a scientist more calculated than Edison. His promotion of the electric chair not only helped to put both Tesla and Westinghouse in the gutter for the next half century but also allowed him to sell a ‘to recently’ much used product to the U.S. government.

    Quote Originally Posted by MerkW View Post
    There is nothing particularly N about him. Unlike Tesla, who would construct vivid mental models of his inventions, Edison was a very trial-and-error, hands-on person.
    Edison actually had many traits that were more eccentric than those of Tesla. He certainly didn’t seem to have any great connection to his surroundings nor did any of his personal habits apply closely to the norm (Si). In terms of personal hygiene and outer focus, Tesla once remarked that Edison was an absolute slob who if not for the concern of his wife, “would’ve died many years ago from consequence of sheer neglect”. ESTJs and Guardians in general tend to care a good deal more about a sense of orderliness and would certainly seem more concerned to take care of their daily needs. From a larger perspective, Edison’s inventions shook things up too much to be supported by secondary Si, which generally seeks to adapt to or preserve the current circumstances; Edison sought to change them, which seems more xNTJ.
    Note: The way you described Edison’s method makes it sound a lot like Se.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by MerkW View Post
    I am not exactly sure what you mean when you say that Edison was more of a calculating person than Tesla.
    I assume what was meant is that Edison was more of a businessman, which is very true. He was a conniving son of a gun, and tried to screw Tesla over at any opportunity. [See LunarMoon's post]

    If you look at the most popular Edison inventions vs. those of Tesla, you'll see that Edison's were about to be invented by someone else, not long after Edison actually did. Many of Tesla's ideas are still hardly understood--he defined the word genius.

  5. #45
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LunarMoon View Post
    Edison actually had many traits that were more eccentric than those of Tesla. He certainly didn’t seem to have any great connection to his surroundings nor did any of his personal habits apply closely to the norm (Si). In terms of personal hygiene and outer focus, Tesla once remarked that Edison was an absolute slob who if not for the concern of his wife, “would’ve died many years ago from consequence of sheer neglect”. ESTJs and Guardians in general tend to care a good deal more about a sense of orderliness and would certainly seem more concerned to take care of their daily needs. From a larger perspective, Edison’s inventions shook things up too much to be supported by secondary Si, which generally seeks to adapt to or preserve the current circumstances; Edison sought to change them, which seems more xNTJ.
    Note: The way you described Edison’s method makes it sound a lot like Se.
    Heh this description of Edison fits ENTP perfectly. ExxJ and slob don't really go together. xNTP and slob on the other hand go together pretty consistently.

    Tesla on the other hand was an INTJ. He was unmatched in his understanding of electro-magnetism, and most of his inventions were related to that field. Edison on the other hand had patents from all sorts of different things. That is a pretty typical contrast of INTJ and ENTP. Both have intution as the dominant function, but one displays depth while the other displays breadth.
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  6. #46
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    Keirsey says Edison's ENTP. I never doubted it. (And Joe Butt/Marina Margaret Heiss)

  7. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post

    Yes, I have read his Parerga Paralipomena. It is a 1200 page collection of essays. Some of them reflect a tough-minded perspective, others a value driven.

    His idea of genius was as follows. The intellect takes primacy over the passions. We become a weight-less mirror of the world.

    This idea is more likely to have been conjured by an NT than an NF. However, other ideas of Schopenhauer suggest otherwise. For example, he maintained that the arts are more efficient than the sciences in acquisition of genius is one.

    The other is where he states that the deepest thoughts come from the heart.

    I want to quote Mr.Überführer’s word to express my views:
    Quote Originally Posted by Uberfuhrer View Post
    INTJs are primarily guided by insight and imagination, and they use the tools of the outer world to express that insight (Ni-Te axis). The INTJ is more concerned with controlling the external world to fit his/her own vision of how things should be. Contrary to popular belief, the INTJ is not a logical type, but since they use Te instead of Ti, they are more interested in usefulness.
    The INTJ is more interested in a preconceived goal crafted by Ni and manipulating the outer world with Te to match the Ni vision.
    (http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...ent-intps.html)
    In fact, Schopenhauer’s genius seems to be genius of Ni,not genius of Ti.


    His pessimism appears to be altogether unfounded, and many of his followers are better known for having an emotional conversion to Schopenhauerianism than the intellectual. His opinion on women, the worthlesness of human life, and the need for a self-denying lifestyle are expressed with great conviction, yet not much is propounded by way of solid logical arguments in favor of this cause.

    As we see, his argument to support this is metaphysical. Namely that the Will is always restless and blind. Suffocates the mind's peace. That is of course true, but does not provide any sound reason for us to believe that we will never have the inner peace. As Schopenhauer does not specify to what extent the Will is restless and to what extent is must be pacified in order for inner peace to take hold. He fills in the gap in his argument with a value-based assertion. So is the case for many of his ideas.



    However, in order to clearly understand Schopenhauer's type, we must first of all focus on his biography.

    There we find that he was an emotional boy who was deeply hurt by his mother's rejection of him, and that played a very significant role in how he has come to see the world. His opinion of women and profound pessimism without a doubt are rooted in this. When we review how he has attempted to deal with this matter, we see his true natural predilections manifest. He emotionalized the situation, he did not sit back to detach or react with anger. Much unlike Nietzsche who was forced to deal with the family who never understood him.

    In my opinion,his mother Johanna Schopenhauer is only a reason to his opinion of women and profound pessimism.From Arthur and Johanna’s dialogue.We can see that Arthur Schopenhauer seemed to be a serious man, Johanna hate her son because of his personality.From Johanna ‘s description of Arthur, Arthur is more like an INTJ. Johanna seemed to be a extraverted feeling woman.In Arthur Schopenhauer’s age,most women were lack of education.Of course, good education didn’t mean wisdom.Arthur Schopenhauer’s description of women seems reflect some shortcomings of women. Arthur Schopenhauer seem to born with profound pessimism,he is always solitude and pessimistic. INFJ’s auxiliary function is extraverted feeling, Schopenhauer seemed to be an introverted feeling man.

    He enjoyed entertaining people at a restaurant nearly every night, and his direct reaction to the emotional feedback he has received from his audience could not have been any more clear-cut. He clearly fed off their feelings more than of their thoughts. He was remembered by most of his listeners for how he was able to present his thoughts on German culture and politics in a way that was interesting to nearly all of his listeners.

    Such attunement with the audience is quite uncommon among INTJs and often paralleled only be ENFPs who have a broad view of the person-centered situation yet retain enough of the Thinking essence to properly structure their presentation.

    Some INTJs are great conversationalists,and they always try to let their audiences to understand their views.

    I want to quote Mr. Haphazard’s word to express my views:
    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    Correction: An immature INTJ will only be open to their own ideas and will throw away the ideas of others without consideration, saying that "that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard!"

    A mature INTJ will hear you out, consider all the options and all the angles, and then tell you "that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard!"

    I think what you're mistaking for myopicness is just be their arguing style. Theirs is right, yours is wrong, until you can prove it to them otherwise. It's a challenge to you rather than closemindedness.


    Schopenhauer implicitly longed for approbation with great intensity and his rancor against Hegel and the professors of philosophy is one example of this. He was chiefly upset with the fact that Hegel held a very prestigious position at an elite university. He was merely jealous.

    He may be jealous,but the most important reason that he hate Hegal maybe that he really thought Hegel’s philosophy are not usefulness to human beings. I think Hegel may be an INTP.

    It should also be noted that just like Bryan Magee, perhaps his most well known popularizer Schopenhauer did not see intellectual pursuits as the most important thing in life. As his earlier proposition that the arts conduce more to the perfection of the intellect than the sciences seem to suggest. He first and foremost loved art, and was one of the most frequent visitors to the theatre in his town. He endorsed many superstitions which he has inherited from the Eastern Religious dogmatists which he hardly bothered to subject to critical analysis, must have assumed them to be his sacred values. Many of the absurdities in his Magnus Opus seem to reflect this. He has presented them as gospel not by virtue of sound argument, but through forcefulness of conviction. Bertrand Russell reports that Schopenhauer claimed that several passages in his World as Will and Representation were written by the Holy Spirit, as well as that he has endorsed black magic.
    I would be hardly surprised to find confirmation for that claim of Russell's. I remember Schopenhauer employing the following phrase 'whoever doubts the integrity of **this practice** should be called not a skeptic but not ignoramus'. I do not remember what this practice was, but it was clearly along the lines of some hocus pocus akin to alchemy.

    May it be “writting by subconsciousness”? To Jung’s opinion, While Nietzsche is writting Thus Spake Zarathustra,his subconsciousness instead of consciousness and help him to write. Jung also can do this. The ability relate to Ni,not feeling.
    (I think Russell must be an INTP.)


    His favorite reading was literature and had mastered 7 languages. Fine arts, literature and foreign language are clearly closer linked with Feeling rather than thinking and it is not at all surprising that INFPs report the easiest time with learning foreign languages and are over-represented in that department.


    That’s no doubt that Schopenhauer had an gift for language.Schopenhauer seems interested in many things.His university studies in Göttingen and Berlin included courses in physics, psychology, astronomy, zoology, archaeology, physiology, history, literature and poetry.He like Descartes and put a portrait-painting of Descartes on the wall of his room.

    Schopenhauer was a value driven individual. From the time he switched residence because he 'HATED' fighting to how he clung to his pessimism, mysogyny and superstitions concerning spirituality. Most of which he seemingly refused to subject to dispassionate philosophical scrutiny.

    His philosophy was thoroughly imbued in his personality and was for the most part an instrument to appease his values at the expense of intellectual integrity. For this reason many of his ridiculous superstitions and values he acquired as a result of his upbringing were not renounced no matter how scholarly he became.
    -------------------------------------------------------


    I have much to say,but I'm afraid that now I have a little difficultness in English.I can't communicate my ideas clearly.



    INFJ:
    Dominant Introverted Intuition (Ni)
    Auxiliary Extraverted Feeling (Fe)
    Tertiary Introverted Thinking (Ti)
    Inferior Extraverted Sensing (Se)

    INTJ:
    Dominant Introverted Intuition (Ni)
    Auxiliary Extraverted Thinking (Te)
    Tertiary Introverted Feeling (Fi)
    Inferior Extraverted Sensing(Se)
    Last edited by Turkish_Cats; 08-19-2008 at 05:35 AM.
    Two things fill the mind with ever new and increasing admiration and awe, the more often and steadily we reflect upon them: the starry heavens above me and the moral law within me. --Kant

    Enneagram: 5?1
    Functional Strengths: Ni, Te, Fi, Ti, Si, Fe, Ne, Se

  8. #48
    Senior Member persianeyes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IlyaK1986 View Post
    I am sorry but no.

    If this man believed in efficiency, he would not have his religion kill so many amongst itself and abroad, and Islamic society would be far more advanced than it is today if it really followed an ENTJ.

    I believe that anyone that's a religious nutcase is automatically disqualified from being a T. The key part about us rationals is that we think of how to improve systems and make them more efficient, not just believe some invisible man will do it.

    Those who follow ENTJs are, or become NTs themselves. You just have to look at the result of Mohammed's work to see that he was anything but an NT.

    Or so I believe.
    You have no right to insult a religious figure and anothers beliefs in such a rude and ignorant way..
    If you don't believe Prophet Mohammad is an ENTJ all you have to do is say so.. not give a huge idiotic speach about what you think about him.
    The truth is on the side of the oppressed. -Malcolm X

  9. #49
    Senior Member LunarMoon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    Heh this description of Edison fits ENTP perfectly. ExxJ and slob don't really go together. xNTP and slob on the other hand go together pretty consistently.

    Tesla on the other hand was an INTJ. He was unmatched in his understanding of electro-magnetism, and most of his inventions were related to that field. Edison on the other hand had patents from all sorts of different things. That is a pretty typical contrast of INTJ and ENTP. Both have intution as the dominant function, but one displays depth while the other displays breadth.
    There's actually a far larger chance that Edison was an ESTJ than an ENTP. As I said in my first post (please read), many of the disputes between Edison and Tesla resulted because he was willing to throw out inventions that wouldn't sale despite their value to research. He was also a shrewd, calculated businessman who played the market more effectively than most entrepreneurs do today, closing down factories that were inefficient and carefully taking steps to publicize his name. All of these traits points to a dominant judging personality and the second trait specifically points to a dominant Thinker personality. If Edison was an ENTP then the two scientists wouldn't have even disliked each other and history would've turned out very differently. Messiness, as I explained in my second post is an Intuitive trait, not specifically that of a Perceiver . It results largely from the Intuitive's disconnection from the external environment. Judging is one of my most prominent functions yet I'm still a good deal messier than most artists. As for Tesla, the chance of an INTJ doing what he did, riskily arriving from a foreign country to New York City with less than five dollars as one's personal possessions, is exceedingly small. INTJ's tend to have more of a fool-proof plan than this and if that was indeed his personality type, he probably would've responded to Edison's jabs at him in a more active manner.

  10. #50
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LunarMoon View Post
    There's actually a far larger chance that Edison was an ESTJ than an ENTP. As I said in my first post (please read), many of the disputes between Edison and Tesla resulted because he was willing to throw out inventions that wouldn't sale despite their value to research. He was also a shrewd, calculated businessman who played the market more effectively than most entrepreneurs do today, closing down factories that were inefficient and carefully taking steps to publicize his name. All of these traits points to a dominant judging personality and the second trait specifically points to a dominant Thinker personality. If Edison was an ENTP then the two scientists wouldn't have even disliked each other and history would've turned out very differently. Messiness, as I explained in my second post is an Intuitive trait, not specifically that of a Perceiver . It results largely from the Intuitive's disconnection from the external environment. Judging is one of my most prominent functions yet I'm still a good deal messier than most artists. As for Tesla, the chance of an INTJ doing what he did, riskily arriving from a foreign country to New York City with less than five dollars as one's personal possessions, is exceedingly small. INTJ's tend to have more of a fool-proof plan than this and if that was indeed his personality type, he probably would've responded to Edison's jabs at him in a more active manner.
    I read your post, and I think you've got ENTP's wrong. You seem to think ENTP's can't lead large organizations which is way off since ENTP is the most natural entrepenuer type. (We have to disagree about Bill Gates too, who is an ENTP.) If you are an ENTJ slob though you are a rarity, because I've never met an ENTJ who carried themself as a slob.

    The sheer quantity of ideas that Edison had is indicative of Ne, which is the function that produces the largest quantity of varied ideas. Also the promoter type is ESTP, so among NT's the type most like this is ENTP.

    Tesla on the other hand is known for not sharing many of his ideas with people, and instead just keeping it all in his head. Also almost all of his inventions flowed naturally out of his mastery of electromagnetism. That deep and focused understanding is indicative of introversion, specifically Ni. Tesla is INTJ. Tesla was also known for getting involved in energies far ahead of his time (like solar). Ni is the function that is adept at projecting into the future.
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