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  1. #11
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    ENTJ - Winston Churchill.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  2. #12
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    Wace, 12th century author of Roman de Rou and Roman de Brut, two early French epics, I believe to have been INTP.

    St Thomas Aquinas - INTJ ?
    St Augustine of Hippo - xNTP
    St Thomas More - ENTP
    The Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) - ENTJ
    Ibn Rushd (known in Europe as Averroes - great Islamic philosopher who had a big influence on the scholastic 12th century Renaissance, greatest work IMO being Tahafut al-Tahafut or "The Incoherence of the Incoherence", in retaliation against Al-Ghazali's Incoherence of the Philosophers) - ENTP

    Augustine was an INFP...most of his work was about the personal Christian values rather than figuring problems out for the sake of figuring them out..

    He also had a self-diatribe streak..which is indicative of Fi more than any other function..

    'So I muddied the stream of friendship with the filth of lewdness and clouded its clear waters with hell's black river of lust. And yet, despite such putrid depravity, I was vain enough to harbor an ambition to succeed in the world. I also fell in love, which was a trap of my own making. My God, God of Mercy, how good were you to me, for you mixed such bitterness in that cup of pleasure. My love was returned, and I became chained in the shackles of its consummation. Even in the midst of my joys I embroiled in tribulation, lashed by the cruel rods of jealousy, fear, anger and bitter argument.'


    Aquinas was an INFJ..His life is a textbook example of how the mind went in service to the heart..he never had a problem talking about Feelings and quite often enjoyed it...even when he was young..very uncommon of an NT..

    I dont know much about Averroes..but why is he an ENTP instead of INTP..He didnt seem to be actively involved in his visions to change the world..and wanst too big into making philosophy practical..he seemed like a detached problem solver who'd be satisfied with just knowing the truth..

    He didnt seem to be the kind of a thinker that Hume Machiavelli and Voltaire were..those who wanted to simplify the complex systems and were hostile to certainty and epistemic rationalism...deeming experience to be more important than pure logic...

    Hume had an aversion to rationalism because he did not need logic to justify what he knew..he'd be ok with just his adaptable Intuitions..yet Averroes was seemingly a very systematic thinker..
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  3. #13
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Augustine was an INFP...most of his work was about the personal Christian values rather than figuring problems out for the sake of figuring them out..
    I disagree. The Christian values were the problems he was trying to figure out - he was raised as a pagan, remember, and trying to deal with the concepts and how they applied to him and life in general. The OTT, emotive style of writing was just the fashionable and expected style of the time. If you whittle out of it all the bits and pieces that are stock phrases from the period's literature, you get a different picture. And by the time he was writing his Confessions, he was much older, and NT's over a certain age are often characterised by remorse over realisation of their thoughtless (in the sense of thoughtlessness about other people's feelings and needs), arrogant and selfish behaviour in youth.

    Aquinas was an INFJ..His life is a textbook example of how the mind went in service to the heart..he never had a problem talking about Feelings and quite often enjoyed it...even when he was young..very uncommon of an NT..
    Again I disagree. He devoted a lot of his time to picking apart the various philosophical viewpoints of his day, and you're forgetting also that what today is classified as 'arts', religious and spiritual stuff associated with NF-ness, in his day, that was science and philosophy. His approach to religion was very much concerned with theology and philosophy, which is what the NT's of his day did - the NF's were more concerned with the charitable side of things, like St Francis of Assisi and his lepers, beggars, animals etc - the application of the theology and its relevance to human lives were what NF's did. Aquinas thought and wrote.

    I dont know much about Averroes..but why is he an ENTP instead of INTP..He didnt seem to be actively involved in his visions to change the world..and wanst too big into making philosophy practical..he seemed like a detached problem solver who'd be satisfied with just knowing the truth..
    Yes to the last part, but no to not being actively involved. He was very active, very energetic and travelled all over the place spreading and promoting his philosophies, meeting with others, influencing and making changes in society. If he were alive today, I cannot imagine him being content to just write about his ideas and put them onto websites. He'd be the kind of person like me, who needs to go out and DO things, bring them face to face with other people and take action. Seems to me he wrote about things from experience, after having thought about them, refined them in the crucible of practice and then realised that some writing was necessary. INTP's tend to do it the other way around and to put experience at a much lower premium than ENTP's.
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

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  4. #14
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    I disagree. The Christian values were the problems he was trying to figure out - he was raised as a pagan, remember, and trying to deal with the concepts and how they applied to him and life in general. The OTT, emotive style of writing was just the fashionable and expected style of the time.
    To be honest, the paragraph turned me a bit away from NFP (those sort of strongly worded comments usually are too strong for them to indulge in).

    In religious contexts, I've seen even xSTJ's say things like that -- it seems to be a "T" level of harshness -- and S/N is unclear with this.

    Again, strong religious beliefs *really* confuses type readings (!). We have to be very careful when religious beliefs are involved -- N people can sound rigid, S people can sound intuitive (from the spiritual level of framing the perspective).

    And by the time he was writing his Confessions, he was much older, and NT's over a certain age are often characterised by remorse over realisation of their thoughtless (in the sense of thoughtlessness about other people's feelings and needs), arrogant and selfish behaviour in youth.
    Didn't Augustine "fall away" later in life? I thought he was said to have backslidden...

    I don't know much about the others, so you two can have at it some more and I will just listen quietly.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  5. #15
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    I disagree. The Christian values were the problems he was trying to figure out - he was raised as a pagan, remember, and trying to deal with the concepts and how they applied to him and life in general. The OTT, emotive style of writing was just the fashionable and expected style of the time. If you whittle out of it all the bits and pieces that are stock phrases from the period's literature, you get a different picture. And by the time he was writing his Confessions, he was much older, and NT's over a certain age are often characterised by remorse over realisation of their thoughtless (in the sense of thoughtlessness about other people's feelings and needs), arrogant and selfish behaviour in youth.



    Again I disagree. He devoted a lot of his time to picking apart the various philosophical viewpoints of his day, and you're forgetting also that what today is classified as 'arts', religious and spiritual stuff associated with NF-ness, in his day, that was science and philosophy. His approach to religion was very much concerned with theology and philosophy, which is what the NT's of his day did - the NF's were more concerned with the charitable side of things, like St Francis of Assisi and his lepers, beggars, animals etc - the application of the theology and its relevance to human lives were what NF's did. Aquinas thought and wrote.



    Yes to the last part, but no to not being actively involved. He was very active, very energetic and travelled all over the place spreading and promoting his philosophies, meeting with others, influencing and making changes in society. If he were alive today, I cannot imagine him being content to just write about his ideas and put them onto websites. He'd be the kind of person like me, who needs to go out and DO things, bring them face to face with other people and take action. Seems to me he wrote about things from experience, after having thought about them, refined them in the crucible of practice and then realised that some writing was necessary. INTP's tend to do it the other way around and to put experience at a much lower premium than ENTP's.

    As for Augustine and Aquinas we ought to pay less attention to their philosophy and more to their biography. Emotions played a bigger role in their lives than logic, I do know that Aquinas never had a problem talking about feelings and by most that got to know him was described as highly sensitive. He appeared to be the kind of a person who'd never discredit someone's values or go against their feelings in favor of what makes sense.

    Augustine was also relationship oriented in his life and spent a lot of time corresponding with others about philosophy on the personal level. Seemingly this was more important to him than just doing philosophy for its own end.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  6. #16
    Senior Member Cerpin_Taxt's Avatar
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    James Joyce- INTP
    One by one, over the months, the other bulbs burn out, and are gone. The first few of these hit Byron hard. He's still a new arrival, still hasn't accepted his immortality. But on through the burning hours he starts to learn about the transience of others: learns that loving them while they're here becomes easier, and also more intenseto love as if each design-hour will be the last.

    Thomas Pynchon - Gravity's Rainbow

    I can't go on, I'll go on.

    Samuel Beckett - The Unnamable

  7. #17
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    As for Augustine and Aquinas we ought to pay less attention to their philosophy and more to their biography. Emotions played a bigger role in their lives than logic, I do know that Aquinas never had a problem talking about feelings and by most that got to know him was described as highly sensitive. He appeared to be the kind of a person who'd never discredit someone's values or go against their feelings in favor of what makes sense.

    Augustine was also relationship oriented in his life and spent a lot of time corresponding with others about philosophy on the personal level. Seemingly this was more important to him than just doing philosophy for its own end.
    Hm, well we'll just have to agree to disagree here, mainly cos I can't be bothered to explain why I disagree. Curse my short attention span

    Suffice it to say that I also wouldn't necessarily OPENLY discredit someone else's values and I can be quite relationship oriented too, though I'm most definately not an F. It's how you approach these things and for what motive, plus what you hope to get out of them, I think, which is more telling than what exactly you approach. I might go along with your reasoning, only saying that it's more likely down to extraversion than Feeling, but there's no way you'll get me to agree that Aquinas or Augustine were Feelers.

    I think St Paul the Apostle was xNTJ though... perhaps he might've been ISTJ when younger, and changed type when he got older. Not sure entirely, but there are definite INTJ-ish qualities to his letters and some ENTJ-ish qualities to his leadership style.

    And yeah, what Jen said, about religion messing everything up regarding type behaviour
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
    I will kill you if I must
    I will help you if I can" - Leonard Cohen

  8. #18
    Member Mac's Avatar
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    Beethoven seems like an INTJ to me. I could be wrong though.

    Dislike of Authority
    Sources show he indulged in a particular disdain for authority, and for those superior to him in social rank. He would cease to perform at the piano if the audience chattered among themselves and did not give him their attention, while at soirées, he refused to perform if suddenly called upon to do so without any warning from his hosts in advance. Eventually, after many confrontations, the Archduke Rudolph found himself compelled to give orders that the usual rules of court etiquette did not apply to Beethoven.
    (Source: Ludwig van Beethoven - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)


    Blunt, hard to befriend, insightful, not very polite
    In one's personal relations with him, an honest and direct approach was the only feasible one, as he could be extremely difficult to deal with on a face to face basis. His sense of morality was contradictory in the extreme. Abstractly - in his music - he loved the concept of humanity; practically - in daily life - he disliked most people, especially the aristocracy. "Strength is the morality of the man who stands out from the rest, and it is mine," he wrote to a friend. He also wrote in his diary, "This I feel and deeply comprehend: Life is not the greatest of blessings, but guilt is the greatest evil." The words are Schiller's but the sentiment is Beethoven's.
    (Source: The Beethoven Mystique)

    It can be said of Ludwig van Beethoven, especially from the time of his arrival in Vienna, that he was a young man of strong personality and at times quite difficult to get on with. Both his teachers and his patrons attest to this. He was also a person of noble ideas. He was very well respected in the circles in which he moved though his treatment of moralists and critics could never termed as being of a polite nature.
    (Source: BEETHOVEN : Personality)


    Perfectionist
    When one realizes that life itself to Beethoven was a search for perfection, personified in his music, then his personality becomes more easily understood. For most people, life is about compromise and accepting less-than-perfect results in negotiations. But in his music and largely in his life as well, Beethoven viewed things from an "all or nothing" perspective, refusing to accept anything other than absolute perfection, reworking his compositions for years on end, and finally accepting his own creations as the nearest thing to perfection that he could achieve.
    (Source: Ludwig van Beethoven: A Musical Titan)


    Misunderstood, unique
    Taking this perspective into account, it is no small wonder that Beethoven was viewed by his patrons, colleagues, and his students as a person difficult to know, communicate with, and understand. In the history of music, he is unique as a composer and as a person. His nine symphonies and thirty-two piano sonatas are essential study pieces for any serious student of music anywhere in the world today. These and other masterworks clearly place Beethoven's music as the culmination of Viennese Classical style. Today, Beethoven is regarded as the dominant musical figure during the first half of the Nineteenth Century, and scarcely any significant composer since his time has escaped his influence in some way.
    (Source: Ludwig van Beethoven: A Musical Titan)


    Arrogant, witty
    In the midst of his gaining popularity, Beethoven gained quite an ego. If Beethoven for some reason did not like the audience he was to perform for, he would not play. If he were in the middle of a concert and a member of the audience was the slightest bit "out of place" (behavior wise) he would walk off of the stage. On top of having a great ego, Beethoven was quick to anger. One time Beethoven was eating a bowl of soup in a restaurant and he didn't like the service he was receiving, so he poured the hot bowl of soup on the waiter and stood there laughing at the man. He also had a scuffle with his brother; Nikolaus Johann gave a business card to Beethoven that read: "Johann van Beethoven –landowner" Beethoven turned the card over and scribbled "Ludwig van Beethoven –brain owner."
    (Source: The Beethoven Page at MIDIWORLD)

    I actually laughed out loud at the "brain owner" part.
    Still waters run deep.

  9. #19
    Senior Member Blackwater's Avatar
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    Darwin-INTP
    Jung wants him Te.
    best collection of philosopher typings online

    http://www.celebritytypes.com/philosophers/

  10. #20
    Alexander the Terrible yenom's Avatar
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    There seems to be a shortage of ENTj's here. So i'll add a few :

    Douglas MacArthur
    George C Marshall
    Franklin Rossevelt (could be ESTP)
    Mustafa Kemal Atatrk
    Genghis Khan ?
    Napoleon (napoleon has some pretty strong Ne though)
    Constantine the Great and several Roman Emperors


    By the way, i am not an Entj.

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