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[MBTI General] How do you spot an ESTJ female?

INTJMom

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I have a job interview today, and I am terrified of ending up with an ESTJ female boss. I would be her personal assistant so there would be a lot of close interaction. Because I am so highly opinionated, I don't get along well with them. We're always butting heads, and we don't speak the same language.

Anyhow I have the interview this afternoon.
I don't care if I get any other SJ , or any other type for that matter.

What signs do I watch for so that I can tell if she's an ESTJ or not?
 

Totenkindly

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I have a job interview today, and I am terrified of ending up with an ESTJ female boss. I would be her personal assistant so there would be a lot of close interaction. Because I am so highly opinionated, I don't get along well with them. We're always butting heads, and we don't speak the same language.

Anyhow I have the interview this afternoon.
I don't care if I get any other SJ , or any other type for that matter.

What signs do I watch for so that I can tell if she's an ESTJ or not?

The first time you see her, she's got her foot on your neck?

Well, if you have such strong issues with ESTJ women, wouldn't you recognize them as soon as you run into them? Based on what you said, you should feel uncomfortable, conflicted, and want to argue with them, and you'll feel like they're dominating the situation, bossing you around, etc.

ESTJ women like to take charge. They tend to prescribe action (concrete action) before they really "analyze" the situation; the application of power is more important, and they can change direction as they go if necessary. They have strong opinions, usually, and aren't afraid to state them, nor immediately challenge ideas they don't understand or think are impractical/stupid.

During an interview, you might overwhelmed, intimidated, like you're being interrogated, etc. They don't mince words, usually, or bandy around, they tend to cut right to the point of disagreement.

Usually if you want to win them over, you have to come across as bold/confident, state your beliefs directly/emphatically, put everything on the table, make sure your suggestions/ideas are logical and practical, and don't take what they do personally.
 

INTJMom

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It would be nice if it were that easy.
You would think I would see them coming a mile away, wouldn't you?!
I've only known of 3 in my life and they weren't there for very long, if you get my drift.

The one who was my boss started out fawning all over me, giving me things, talking nice.
So it's like they're in stealth mode at the beginning.
Then she started inventing all these hoops for us to jump through just for the sake of having hoops to jump through - like a sign in/sign out sheet. There were only FOUR of in in the office!!
Before too long I felt like I needed to ask permission to go to the restroom!

Then she would gossip to me about the other people in the office. And she'd say stuff like, I've been watching you. I see what's going on. And I'd get all paranoid even though I wasn't doing anything wrong. But my fear of being constantly scrutinized and misunderstood - because she did NOT understand the Ns - argh!!
 

Totenkindly

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It would be nice if it were that easy.
You would think I would see them coming a mile away, wouldn't you?!
I've only known of 3 in my life and they weren't there for very long, if you get my drift.

The one who was my boss started out fawning all over me, giving me things, talking nice.
So it's like they're in stealth mode at the beginning.
Then she started inventing all these hoops for us to jump through just for the sake of having hoops to jump through - like a sign in/sign out sheet. There were only FOUR of in in the office!!
Before too long I felt like I needed to ask permission to go to the restroom!

She must have been a neurotic one, then.

Any ESTJ worth his or her salt doesn't play around with indirect behavior like that. ESFJs tend to do that more because they have the whole Fe thing going, and so they try to play by the "social rules" and just undermine/break them behind the scenes. Are you sure they weren't maladjusted ESFJs?

ESTJs don't really care about the social rules if they think the rules are stupid. They will change the rules if they don't like them, but otherwise enforce them wholehog. They aren't catty, they'd just as soon gut you in clear sight.

Then she would gossip to me about the other people in the office. And she'd say stuff like, I've been watching you. I see what's going on. And I'd get all paranoid even though I wasn't doing anything wrong. But my fear of being constantly scrutinized and misunderstood - because she did NOT understand the Ns - argh!!

:shock: That's just creepy.
 

INTJMom

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Well...
It happened a few years ago.
I spent my Christmas vacation with my MBTT books trying to figure out why I was having such a hard time getting along with my new boss.
Once I figured out she was an ESTJ, it all made sense.

One of the first things she did when she came into power was she cleaned out the whole place and threw practically everything away.
She rearranged all the furniture.
I would overhear her on the phone lying - I mean talking - to the owner about how my previous boss was doing a lousy job. He was one of the nicest men I have ever known - probably ENFJ.


Apparently she didn't think her stupid hoops were stupid.
 

INTJMom

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The good news is she might be an xNFJ.
 

Totenkindly

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...I would overhear her on the phone lying - I mean talking - to the owner about how my previous boss was doing a lousy job. He was one of the nicest men I have ever known - probably ENFJ.

Actually, to her, she was probably telling the truth... from her perspective.
Or in a way that supported what she was trying to accomplish.

Everything is subject to Te, remember, not Ti or some other "essence of things" function.

So "truth" in a sense is "whatever accomplishes the practical purposes." It's Te truth, grounded in Si -- what's worked in the past and what values she carried from childhood.
 

INTJMom

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Actually, to her, she was probably telling the truth... from her perspective.
Or in a way that supported what she was trying to accomplish.

Everything is subject to Te, remember, not Ti or some other "essence of things" function.

So "truth" in a sense is "whatever accomplishes the practical purposes." It's Te truth, grounded in Si -- what's worked in the past and what values she carried from childhood.
Oh I know! That's the way she saw it!
That's what was scary about it!
And that's why I didn't like her and I would never want to work for anyone like her.
 

Totenkindly

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Oh I know! That's the way she saw it!
That's what was scary about it!

It is definitely sort of frightening to see the inherent nature of things (personal or impersonal) being violated just to further external purposes.

And that's why I didn't like her and I would never want to work for anyone like her.

I do okay with ESTJs... but I know how to manage them. ;)
 

TickTock

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Actually, to her, she was probably telling the truth... from her perspective.
Or in a way that supported what she was trying to accomplish.

Everything is subject to Te, remember, not Ti or some other "essence of things" function.

So "truth" in a sense is "whatever accomplishes the practical purposes." It's Te truth, grounded in Si -- what's worked in the past and what values she carried from childhood.

That reminds me of a quote on facebook from an ESTJ:

"the ability to win an argument does not necessarily make one correct"
 

Totenkindly

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"the ability to win an argument does not necessarily make one correct"

yup. And actually, that is right: Winning an argument and being right aren't the same at all.
 

Economica

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For my last job I interviewed with the 40-year-old ESTJ female who would go on to be my boss. We bonded over Te initially, but an S/N clash soon reared its head :BangHead: and I quit within six months largely on account of it. I too would be wary at the prospect of another ESTJ boss, <disclaimer> at least one as stereotypically underdeveloped as she was </disclaimer>.

At the first interview she was indeed no-nonsense to the point of being interrogative, as Jennifer describes. I was the favored candidate for the position, but she had a couple of questions to which she wanted the right answer and her approach to asking them was direct and transparent; I could practically see her make the mental check mark each time I answered correctly.

The introduction she gave me to the company was all trees and no forest: She presented the organizational chart of the company and told me what each department did, proudly dwelling on the excellence of the company's supply chain management (it was an FMCG company) but ignoring the company's marketing-strategic situation until I brought it up - and I was interviewing for a position in the market research department, no less. (In retrospect this first conversation should have told me what was coming... :doh:)

Finally, her small talk had a going-through-the-motions feel. You know how it sometimes feels like the other person has assigned exactly 10 seconds for a canned exchange about the weather? She was one such person. :dry: The hug she gave me at the end of the second interview (during which she offered me the position and I accepted) did feel genuine though. She wasn't all bad. ;)

All in all, however, I remember feeling like we were actors playing the roles of boss and candidate in a stylized job interview. - I guess my floofy-N contribution :D would be to watch out for that feeling.
 

INTJMom

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Phew! I feel so relieved!
Thank you for that experiential - and somewhat amusing - heads-up.
Definitely watch out for too much S-talk. Check!

Wow you lasted six months! You're tough! I think I lasted 3!

Is an ESTJ the type that might take on a huge institution - like the Baptist Church, for instance - and try to undermine and change it by said undermining? Cause that's what this lady is doing.
She says the way you make change is by doing it differently and eventually they will change the rules to keep up with the way people are doing it.
That doesn't sound particularly SJ-ish but I think they like to throw their weight around (at least that's what it looks like to a powerless INTJ.)
 

Synarch

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ESTJ's are pernicious in organizations as they are masters at using the hierarchy. They readily use their role or position as a justification. Outside of an existing hierarchy they are quite powerless and can be even rather pathetic. One way to win against an ESTJ is to keep expressing your lack of concern while promoting creative approaches to problems, which they have usually no ability to deal with, in my experience.
 

Totenkindly

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Is an ESTJ the type that might take on a huge institution - like the Baptist Church, for instance - and try to undermine and change it by said undermining? Cause that's what this lady is doing.
She says the way you make change is by doing it differently and eventually they will change the rules to keep up with the way people are doing it.
That doesn't sound particularly SJ-ish but I think they like to throw their weight around (at least that's what it looks like to a powerless INTJ.)

Is she in a position of authority?

She's headstrong, at the least.

Just because she is SJ doesn't mean she will support the current regime.
She is Te + Si, so she'll do what seems to "make practical sense" and that is merely guided by Si. This could put her in league with the establishment, or it could put her at odds; the specifics matter.

And ESTJs, sure, will do things differently in the areas they have control over and are quite willing to run over who is in the way or bump heads or fend off attacks. They will even light the bonfires and call challenges, not making attempts to hide what they're doing; the conflict actually helps get things in the open and resolves the issue, and is nothing to be afraid of.

(especially cuz they are right and more powerful than their silly antagonists. :D)

I don't necessarily consider that undermining, I see it as "setting a new course" and bumping around in the demolition derby until someone's car blows up.

Now that we have THAT settled, can you understand why ENTJs scare me more? eeep.
 

INTJMom

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Is she in a position of authority?

She's headstrong, at the least.

Just because she is SJ doesn't mean she will support the current regime.
She is Te + Si, so she'll do what seems to "make practical sense" and that is merely guided by Si. This could put her in league with the establishment, or it could put her at odds; the specifics matter.

And ESTJs, sure, will do things differently in the areas they have control over and are quite willing to run over who is in the way or bump heads or fend off attacks. They will even light the bonfires and call challenges, not making attempts to hide what they're doing; the conflict actually helps get things in the open and resolves the issue, and is nothing to be afraid of.

(especially cuz they are right and more powerful than their silly antagonists. :D)

I don't necessarily consider that undermining, I see it as "setting a new course" and bumping around in the demolition derby until someone's car blows up.

Now that we have THAT settled, can you understand why ENTJs scare me more? eeep.
Authority?!
She started the company!
Oh dear. Bad news.

How long could I endure being somebody's monkey?
 

Usehername

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I wouldn't be afraid of any type just because they are a certain 4 letters. I had an ESTJ female friend in HS, and though she would often tease me for my "incompetence with anything related to reality" (like when she was over at my house my mom put her in charge of everything when she left the house)... but I also came up with the plans she would execute. We had loads of fun with practical jokes, etc.
Even when she was "boss" if I was persistent enough she would roll her eyes at my :lack of practicality," but would also see that I had a lot of good ideas (as non-STJ as they were). And she would pretend to ridicule my ideas while carrying them out, more often than not. She prided herself on her Te, is all.

When we kept up the schtick it all went fine. :)
 

INTJMom

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There are only 3 people in the whole world with whom I have broken relationships.
All of them are ESTJ women.
 

Totenkindly

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Authority?!
She started the company!
Oh dear. Bad news.

I thought you said it was regarding the baptist church?

(Is she the reincarnation of John the Baptist?)

How long could I endure being somebody's monkey?

The organ grinders can get a little monotonous, true.
 

INTJMom

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I thought you said it was regarding the baptist church?

(Is she the reincarnation of John the Baptist?)



The organ grinders can get a little monotonous, true.
She started the company that is undermining the Church.

btw: I used "Baptist" as an example of a large immutable Church organization.
 
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