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  1. #11
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lithium View Post
    "the ability to win an argument does not necessarily make one correct"
    yup. And actually, that is right: Winning an argument and being right aren't the same at all.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  2. #12
    Dhampyr Economica's Avatar
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    For my last job I interviewed with the 40-year-old ESTJ female who would go on to be my boss. We bonded over Te initially, but an S/N clash soon reared its head and I quit within six months largely on account of it. I too would be wary at the prospect of another ESTJ boss, <disclaimer> at least one as stereotypically underdeveloped as she was </disclaimer>.

    At the first interview she was indeed no-nonsense to the point of being interrogative, as Jennifer describes. I was the favored candidate for the position, but she had a couple of questions to which she wanted the right answer and her approach to asking them was direct and transparent; I could practically see her make the mental check mark each time I answered correctly.

    The introduction she gave me to the company was all trees and no forest: She presented the organizational chart of the company and told me what each department did, proudly dwelling on the excellence of the company's supply chain management (it was an FMCG company) but ignoring the company's marketing-strategic situation until I brought it up - and I was interviewing for a position in the market research department, no less. (In retrospect this first conversation should have told me what was coming... )

    Finally, her small talk had a going-through-the-motions feel. You know how it sometimes feels like the other person has assigned exactly 10 seconds for a canned exchange about the weather? She was one such person. The hug she gave me at the end of the second interview (during which she offered me the position and I accepted) did feel genuine though. She wasn't all bad.

    All in all, however, I remember feeling like we were actors playing the roles of boss and candidate in a stylized job interview. - I guess my floofy-N contribution would be to watch out for that feeling.

  3. #13
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Phew! I feel so relieved!
    Thank you for that experiential - and somewhat amusing - heads-up.
    Definitely watch out for too much S-talk. Check!

    Wow you lasted six months! You're tough! I think I lasted 3!

    Is an ESTJ the type that might take on a huge institution - like the Baptist Church, for instance - and try to undermine and change it by said undermining? Cause that's what this lady is doing.
    She says the way you make change is by doing it differently and eventually they will change the rules to keep up with the way people are doing it.
    That doesn't sound particularly SJ-ish but I think they like to throw their weight around (at least that's what it looks like to a powerless INTJ.)

  4. #14
    Once Was Synarch's Avatar
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    ESTJ's are pernicious in organizations as they are masters at using the hierarchy. They readily use their role or position as a justification. Outside of an existing hierarchy they are quite powerless and can be even rather pathetic. One way to win against an ESTJ is to keep expressing your lack of concern while promoting creative approaches to problems, which they have usually no ability to deal with, in my experience.

  5. #15
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTJMom View Post
    Is an ESTJ the type that might take on a huge institution - like the Baptist Church, for instance - and try to undermine and change it by said undermining? Cause that's what this lady is doing.
    She says the way you make change is by doing it differently and eventually they will change the rules to keep up with the way people are doing it.
    That doesn't sound particularly SJ-ish but I think they like to throw their weight around (at least that's what it looks like to a powerless INTJ.)
    Is she in a position of authority?

    She's headstrong, at the least.

    Just because she is SJ doesn't mean she will support the current regime.
    She is Te + Si, so she'll do what seems to "make practical sense" and that is merely guided by Si. This could put her in league with the establishment, or it could put her at odds; the specifics matter.

    And ESTJs, sure, will do things differently in the areas they have control over and are quite willing to run over who is in the way or bump heads or fend off attacks. They will even light the bonfires and call challenges, not making attempts to hide what they're doing; the conflict actually helps get things in the open and resolves the issue, and is nothing to be afraid of.

    (especially cuz they are right and more powerful than their silly antagonists. )

    I don't necessarily consider that undermining, I see it as "setting a new course" and bumping around in the demolition derby until someone's car blows up.

    Now that we have THAT settled, can you understand why ENTJs scare me more? eeep.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #16
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Is she in a position of authority?

    She's headstrong, at the least.

    Just because she is SJ doesn't mean she will support the current regime.
    She is Te + Si, so she'll do what seems to "make practical sense" and that is merely guided by Si. This could put her in league with the establishment, or it could put her at odds; the specifics matter.

    And ESTJs, sure, will do things differently in the areas they have control over and are quite willing to run over who is in the way or bump heads or fend off attacks. They will even light the bonfires and call challenges, not making attempts to hide what they're doing; the conflict actually helps get things in the open and resolves the issue, and is nothing to be afraid of.

    (especially cuz they are right and more powerful than their silly antagonists. )

    I don't necessarily consider that undermining, I see it as "setting a new course" and bumping around in the demolition derby until someone's car blows up.

    Now that we have THAT settled, can you understand why ENTJs scare me more? eeep.
    Authority?!
    She started the company!
    Oh dear. Bad news.

    How long could I endure being somebody's monkey?

  7. #17
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    I wouldn't be afraid of any type just because they are a certain 4 letters. I had an ESTJ female friend in HS, and though she would often tease me for my "incompetence with anything related to reality" (like when she was over at my house my mom put her in charge of everything when she left the house)... but I also came up with the plans she would execute. We had loads of fun with practical jokes, etc.
    Even when she was "boss" if I was persistent enough she would roll her eyes at my :lack of practicality," but would also see that I had a lot of good ideas (as non-STJ as they were). And she would pretend to ridicule my ideas while carrying them out, more often than not. She prided herself on her Te, is all.

    When we kept up the schtick it all went fine.
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
    C.S. Lewis

  8. #18
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    There are only 3 people in the whole world with whom I have broken relationships.
    All of them are ESTJ women.

  9. #19
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTJMom View Post
    Authority?!
    She started the company!
    Oh dear. Bad news.
    I thought you said it was regarding the baptist church?

    (Is she the reincarnation of John the Baptist?)

    How long could I endure being somebody's monkey?
    The organ grinders can get a little monotonous, true.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  10. #20
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I thought you said it was regarding the baptist church?

    (Is she the reincarnation of John the Baptist?)



    The organ grinders can get a little monotonous, true.
    She started the company that is undermining the Church.

    btw: I used "Baptist" as an example of a large immutable Church organization.

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