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  1. #41
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Neurosis, as I understand it, can be summed up by...

    The right mind thinks 2+2=4 and is okay with that
    The delusional mind thinks 2+2=5 and is okay with that
    The neurotic mind knows 2+2=4, but HATES it.

    A sort of resistance to accepting and dealing with immutable realities? Like somebody who falls in love, finds it unrequitted, but just simply cannot move on and spends years fooling themselves that the object of their affection will leave her husband and elope with him?

    Or maybe like, not being able to accept the freewill of others, y'know? Sorta, make plans and stuff involving other people, then just not be able to deal when the other people don't want to cooperate, and have plans of their own, trying to sorta force them, dominate/coerce them into cooperating and then not accepting that this makes them disliked?

    I think I've seen the most examples of that sort of behaviour in J's... so whilst maybe NTJ's might be prone to it, I tend to think NTP's are quite resistant to it.
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

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  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by LadyJaye View Post
    I find neurotic NT's much more difficult to reason with than neurotic NF's, because a feeling can be refuted as false, but an NT who clings to their "logic" even when it's clearly faulty, it's almost impossible for them to see otherwise.
    Excellent point.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by LadyJaye View Post
    I find neurotic NT's much more difficult to reason with than neurotic NF's, because a feeling can be refuted as false, but an NT who clings to their "logic" even when it's clearly faulty, it's almost impossible for them to see otherwise.
    I don't see the theoretical difference there, self-assessment of "logical ability" aside.

    But...you refer to outside refutation, such as a psychiatrist? You may have something there. Less confidence in self-assessment in the NF?

    If this is correct, it might all balance out as far as improvement, but that the NF would need assistance while the NT "must" rely on him/her self.

  4. #44
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    Oh yeah, and what LadyJaye said - again, I think NTJ's might be more prone to that than NTP's, because they're more likely to be, well, you know how they can be when they've got it all worked out...? I think an NTP would be more willing to consider that there was data they'd not taken into account in their logical process, to reassess... whereas it's somewhat harder to convince an NTJ to do this, generally speaking.
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
    I will kill you if I must
    I will help you if I can" - Leonard Cohen

  5. #45
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    ^ delusional NTP ramblings....

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    Natrlich. I wouldn't be satisfied without them around. Analysis isn't criticism. They're far better on average than NTs at making people other than themselves happier.
    sure, I was trying to analyze myself. In the case of me and my INFJ, I really can say it is a TP vs. FJ thing. She has developed some overall sense of things, while I get to live life everyday differently.

    That is what enables me, in my opinion, to stay moreso in touch, with life's makeup.

    Something like you would try everyday to keep up your quadratic equation, while the FJ sometimes needs a gaussian algorithmus to revert her complicated function back to the root.
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  7. #47
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    I am not getting us further, am I ?
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  8. #48
    Scream down the boulevard LadyJaye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    I don't see the theoretical difference there, self-assessment of "logical ability" aside.

    But...you refer to outside refutation, such as a psychiatrist? You may have something there. Less confidence in self-assessment in the NF?

    If this is correct, it might all balance out as far as improvement, but that the NF would need assistance while the NT "must" rely on him/her self.
    Nope. I don't need someone to tell me how to assess my own feelings. I'm perfectly capable of analyzing them on my own - I know when I'm being fed false information by my emotions. I can choose how I wish to react to a situation, despite my feelings, and I can tell myself that a feeling is strictly that - a feeling. It's not the sole law I must live by.

    To me, neurotic NT's are like a robot that keeps going through the same loop and logging an error, over and over again. I have two very close friends, an INTP and an INTJ, and they are two of the worse self assessors I've ever met. They can't see where they might need outside help - they assume they can "fix" everything themselves, including their social deficiencies, for which they have no expertise, but they blindly lunge forward anyway, because their logic is completely lying to them. But according to them, they can't be wrong, because logic always saves the day, even though it clearly isn't.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by LadyJaye View Post
    Nope. I don't need someone to tell me how to assess my own feelings. I'm perfectly capable of analyzing them on my own - I know when I'm being fed false information by my emotions. I can choose how I wish to react to a situation, despite my feelings, and I can tell myself that a feeling is strictly that - a feeling. It's not the sole law I must live by.
    This holds true for NFs you are aware of, on average? I'm seeking understanding here, not debating.

    To me, neurotic NT's are like a robot that keeps going through the same loop and logging an error, over and over again. I have two very close friends, an INTP and an INTJ, and they are two of the worse self assessors I've ever met. They can't see where they might need outside help - they assume they can "fix" everything themselves, including their social deficiencies, for which they have no expertise, but they blindly lunge forward anyway, because their logic is completely lying to them. But according to them, they can't be wrong, because logic always saves the day, even though it clearly isn't.
    I understand that completely. NTs aren't usually fond of intervention, regardless of how well they're solving a problem. So the NT needs to be self-correcting more than others.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by LadyJaye View Post
    I find neurotic NT's much more difficult to reason with than neurotic NF's, because a feeling can be refuted as false, but an NT who clings to their "logic" even when it's clearly faulty, it's almost impossible for them to see otherwise.
    Yeah, but if they're neurotic NFs, sometimes they trust their feelings so much that you can't tell them that just because they feel something that it's an accurate view of the situation at hand. However, when I'm in a neurotic/depressed state, I have the same blinders on. It's hard to imagine that life isn't exactly as I'm perceiving it, even though I might logically know that it's a faulty perception.

    Quote Originally Posted by LadyJaye View Post
    To me, neurotic NT's are like a robot that keeps going through the same loop and logging an error, over and over again. I have two very close friends, an INTP and an INTJ, and they are two of the worse self assessors I've ever met. They can't see where they might need outside help - they assume they can "fix" everything themselves, including their social deficiencies, for which they have no expertise, but they blindly lunge forward anyway, because their logic is completely lying to them. But according to them, they can't be wrong, because logic always saves the day, even though it clearly isn't.
    This is true. I think it's just two sides of the same coin, though. I think when anyone is in a state of upheaval, they start spinning in circles with whatever processes they trust. I do have a big problem with wanting to fix things and wanting to do everything by myself, but I have learned that I pretty much downward-spiral if I let that go on. Nothing teaches you that no man is an island quite like having to deal with anxiety or depression. You can't logic your way out of those things.

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