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  1. #121
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    Wha? It's about NTs, not Ss.
    Oh, ok. I thought you were saying NTs were the most objective group and then listed the order of types within that group.

    I see that's not what you were doing now.

    However, it would still be valid,if you were.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  2. #122
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluemonday View Post
    You heard.
    Are you telling me theoretical physicists lack objectivity?
    For the third time. Objectivity is not about objects or real world entities.
    Yes, theoretical physics lacks objectivity up until the point it is validated. That's because physics is a model of the real world and must represent an objective outcome. Simply dreaming up a TOE is meaningless unless it represents reality.

    It would make more sense if you said mathematics alone, since that wouldn't be as easy to argue. Physics is still a science. All science requires a testable hypothesis, and thus requires a method to test the theory. You can have math. I'll take all of the sciences. That's a fair trade to me.

    But tell you what. You can have the title - it's not like it changes reality anyway. All you have to is remove "perceived" from the definition. And narrow "fact" down to only the one definition you want. And then ignore that any internal thought would be biased if it didn't reflect external reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    Conditions are observable, and aren't necessarily provable, if you want to get technical, as I can see you do.
    I must be missing your point. Conditions that can be seen without bias require controlled circumstances, anyway. They would be data, not fact, sure, but doesn't change the underlying point. To conclude on weaker circumstances would be biased. It simply replaces "fact" with "observation". The ability to see the world the way it is is more of an NP thing than SP thing, then...? Sure, why not. I'll chalk it up to the depth of insight.

    Trying to prove S more objective than N, an irrelevant notion anyway as far as the OP is concerned, smacks of personal agenda, which is, of course, quite subjective. I've already said I disagree with the notion, as some others have, but that's neither here nor there.
    Hmmm... the only threads I have seen about objectivity have come from INTPs, not surprisingly always picking themselves. I don't care quite so much, actually.... Agenda, heh? Sure, I suppose. I do find it amusing. But point taken, I'll let you guys debate it away without interference.

    (Unless substitute posts. It's not over man.)

  3. #123
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Yes, theoretical physics lacks objectivity up until the point it is validated.
    Rubbish, rubbish, rubbish.
    and
    Rubbish.

    You can be objectively wrong, you know.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Yes, theoretical physics lacks objectivity up until the point it is validated. That's because physics is a model of the real world and must represent an objective outcome. Simply dreaming up a TOE is meaningless unless it represents reality.
    Incorrect. Objectivity can be maintained from the point of no knowledge all the way through to complete understanding. It can be, and is, a mindset to go about collecting data, not the amount of data itself.

    To conclude on weaker circumstances would be biased. It simply replaces "fact" with "observation". The ability to see the world the way it is is more of an NP thing than SP thing, then...? Sure, why not. I'll chalk it up to the depth of insight.
    I don't know; That's not relevant.

    Hmmm... the only threads I have seen about objectivity have come from INTPs, not surprisingly always picking themselves.
    Is it not acceptable for people to notice traits within themselves and others? I mentioned agenda simply because you brought your opinions of ISTP objectivity into a conversation intended to be about NT objectivity.

  5. #125
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    Incorrect. Objectivity can be maintained from the point of no knowledge all the way through to complete understanding. It can be, and is, a mindset to go about collecting data, not the amount of data itself.
    From no knowledge, to going out and collecting data. I totally agree.

    Is it not acceptable for people to notice traits within themselves and others?
    Good question. I would say it is.

  6. #126
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    From no knowledge, to going out and collecting data. I totally agree.

    What happens if it's unfeasible to collect data?

    Does an argument suddenly switch from being subjective (i.e. based on personal values) to objective because it is newly supported by data?

    That's ridiculous.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  7. #127
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluemonday View Post
    Does an argument suddenly switch from being subjective (i.e. based on personal values) to objective because it is newly supported by data?
    Hmmm... you are asking if a subjective opinion on something becomes objective once it is supported? Yes. By virtue of being supported by something observable, it becomes objective, in the literal "it is not a subjective opinion, you can see it/do it yourself".

    The whole point is that holding opinions that are not validated makes one subjective. Yes, some of them may be correct, but objectivity doesn't speak to truth, it speaks as a lack of personal bias. Having something outside that others can see validates your perceptions and makes the concept objective - supported by a non-subjective thing.

  8. #128
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Hmmm... you are asking if a subjective opinion on something becomes objective once it is supported? Yes. By virtue of being supported by something observable, it becomes objective, in the literal "it is not a subjective opinion, you can see it/do it yourself".

    The whole point is that holding opinions that are not validated makes one subjective. Yes, some of them may be correct, but objectivity doesn't speak to truth, it speaks as a lack of personal bias. Having something outside that others can see validates your perceptions and makes the concept objective - supported by a non-subjective thing.
    I see what you are saying, but you are wrong.

    If someone lacks objectivity, they will mold the facts to suit their argument. Facts are meaningless without the objective mindset.

    Lies..damned lies...statistics.....?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluemonday View Post
    If someone lacks objectivity, they will mold the facts to suit their argument. Facts are meaningless without the objective mindset.
    Yes, listen to this if possible. This is what I was getting at, in other words.

    Those who are more objective will speak and act in a way not in line with self-interest (or a specific goal) more than those with a subjective mindset.

  10. #130
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Errmmm can I just say OH MY WORD... this is getting WAY too silly now.

    Objective is in relation to the object no? Well then you'd be better off first looking at those who deal with the object than the self no? So that's INTJ or ENTJ... shocking...

    Btw if testing is irrelevant then details are irrelevant... as is this discussion and many others. Kinda removes the point of interaction if you ask me.

    Anyhow the most objective person is one who recognises their own inability to be objctive. That is more likely to be INTPs admitedly but the whole obsession with some fine distinction way past when it is of any use kinda of makes them a little too driven to be all that objective.

    To make it about the ball you have to be able to put the damn thing down once in a while so you can see it.

    Anyhow... may I ask why this even came up? Is it for predictive purposes or merely a mine's bigger than yours?
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

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