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  1. #201
    Senior Member Onceajoan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Falcon View Post
    You can't see yourself as introverted and identify with the typical ENTJ descriptions. Indeed, these clearly emphasize how assertive and outspoken we are, which are key facets of the Extraversion domain. Also, you say "maybe it's nice to take a break". But being ENTJ is about having a preference for leading and feeling comfortable when you are in leadership.

    The problem is that you come across as unsure of yourself and wavering. Type is supposed to represent the place where you feel comfortable being at and what you like doing. And you don't come across as liking to do what ENTJ's do.
    Type is NOT necessarily a place that a person feels comfortable being at. In fact, type isn't "supposed" to be anything at all. It does not represent a state of being, rather it is part of an overall personality assessment system which (hopefully - with no guarantee) provides some general insight into one's personality and interaction with other types. The map is not the territory (i.e. a "type" is not a "person"). Given the complexity of human experience how can anyone think that one personality system would be able to explain this with exact precision or with infallibility? As you are probably aware (since you seem to be educated on the subject), not everyone tests for a strong preference I or E, for example. Some people are neither I or E, but X. Same with the other preferences. On the various forums you find diversity among INTPs, INFPs, ESTJs, etc. because MBTI can not account for all of an individual's personalities and preferences. You don't get "pure" types - there will always be the N/A (IMO ) Also, as people grow and mature, their preferences may soften and shift. A younger person is more likely to mistype themselves because he or she does not have a strong sense of identity. However, this mistyping experience is part of the maturation and self reflective process itself. It really is not within the right of others to tell someone that he or she is or is not a particular type.


    Quote Originally Posted by Falcon View Post
    Now that was not a very logical answer, it seems like you lost control of your feelings on that one.
    There does seem to be some logic here, insofar as it suggests two perspectives or sides - the position that one is taking things too personally while the other conveys a sense of superiority, in the eyes of the other. You assume that if someone is emotional or "takes something personally", that person is incapable of logic. As long as you keep your emotions locked away, you'll win by default, despite your faulty logic. I'm speaking hypothetically, of course, because I know your logic is beyond scrutiny.

    How do ENTJs become likeable and less threatening to others?
    ENTJs become less threatening when you're not at all intimidated by them - when you figure out that they're often full of hot air - in a good way - you know that you can hold your own - even if they say you're illogical - because their insult or put down doesn't hold any weight - you don't care or internalize their judgment -your self esteem does not hinge on your ability to make a consistently logical argument - your thoughts are for you alone - you have nothing to prove per se - you know that your feelings are valid - feelings do matter

    ENTJ become more likeable when you recognize the huge contribution they can make to organizations. Their ability to be able to conceptualize the big picture and generate meaningful structures and new ideas is a gift. ENTJs also have wonderful leadership qualities. They can also be good to hang around them when you get them to loosen up and have fun. Although fun for an ENTJ can consist of debating for hours on end, it can be entertaining. My toleration for ENTJs is dependent on their level of Jness. If it's high, I'm turned off. It's an issue of my own - so when I witness it, I have a hard time not cringing. J is good insofar as it enables an individual to plan, organize and make decisions - however, not so good in human relationships when harsh judgments are made- you just alienate others (so has been my experience).
    What if everything's an illusion and nothing exists? In that case, I definitely overpaid for my carpet. - Woody Allen

  2. #202
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatGirl View Post
    Yeah, but I don't think I know what is best for everyone, it gets a little murkier when I am sharing consequences with someone else. For example, I could't care less what you do with your time, as long as that is YOUR thing. If I am working with you, or in an intimate relationship or friendship, I don't want to be subject to cleaning up sloppy mistakes. This was most evident in my ex husband, who drove me crazy with not thinking things through and racking up consequences to the point I turned into a non stop micro-manager. Hence, EX husband.
    Like you said, he's an ex for defined reasons. Most men aren't like this. But I do have to question the tact taken of micro-managing a husband. In doing so, you're enabling a mother-child, wendy/peterpan dynamic. There's no room for growth for him except in the direction you dictate and even then, he's probably going to be second-guessed so why try? This isn't to hurt you but it's something to consider.

    I do know that I am human, I am not great at everything, but what I am great at is collaboration and compromise. Figuring out situations like puzzles and working them to the best case scenarios. Everyone else has their strengths, it would be nice to be able to fully exorcise mine without feeling like the bad guy all the time. Like I am over stepping my boundaries, or taking someone else's will away.

    It is a tricky balance to feel you are living up to your strengths, while respecting others ability. It may BE narcissistic, but a lot of the time, when you sit down and think about my solutions and ideas you can see the value. They are like a work of art, specifically built to serve a purpose, while incorporating all the important dynamics people say they cant live without or compromise on. Getting something working better, without sacrificing the strengths it was built on in the first place.

    I rarely get to show that side, because of all the other superficial dynamics that go on. Like politics, hierarchies, social niceties, and so forth. It has gotten to the point, I don't even try anymore, because the time it takes to get an "in" the solution is obsolete, the circumstances have changed, and then I look crazy for producing the next result instead of the one I was originally presenting....if that makes any sense. Then I have to back track and get people on board again.
    Can't disagree about working to your strengths. When doing so, it feels so right and natural.

    But once again, you're only seeing your vision as the only vision. It is why other people aren't viewed through objective eyes of competency since you're not seeing multiple potential realities. There's only one and it's yours. Open up the Ni gates more. Listen with your Te and Se.

    Even if there's only one most efficient potential reality, there are millions of ways to get to that reality.

    That's why it is easier to just say fuck it, and handle your own, and not give a shit about others, their goals, or whatever. Though I understand this is in no way helping myself or the dynamics I am working with in the long run. Its weird.
    It doesn't have to be such a cynical view of fuck 'em if they can't get with my program. Give people room to breath and fly. Some will do so, others will fall flat on their faces. And that's okay too since people learn best on their faces.

  3. #203
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    ThatGirl is ESTP btw
    ENTj 7-3-8 sx/sp

  4. #204
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    She is? More like ESTJ than ESTP but hey, no typologist here.

  5. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by LunarMoon View Post
    I’ve never had this problem. My relationships tend to be more defined by the fact that other people want to maintain closer friendships with me but that I’m so obsessed with my work that I lose contact and come off as neglectful. If people misunderstand your intentions then explain them. If they believe that you’re serving only yourself then do the opposite and explain your plans from the focus of what’s in it for them. ENTJs are rarely the type to whine about their life problems and do nothing to solve them.
    Right, I get the whole neglecting thing too, except to me that is one simple solution, be more attentive. Not very complicated so nothing to dwell on. As a result I have learned to prioritize my time. My true friends know if they ever REALLY needed me, I would be the first one there when others wouldn't even show up at all.

    As for explaining myself, been there done that. My old signature used to be "Never complain, never explain, just be," mostly because if you allow others to call the shots, your going to end up explaining yourself forever. As long as you are on the defense you're neutralized, fighting to make clear or retain acceptance for your positions. Not my idea of fun...


    Quote Originally Posted by Onceajoan View Post

    How do ENTJs become likeable and less threatening to others?
    ENTJs become less threatening when you're not at all intimidated by them - when you figure out that they're often full of hot air - in a good way - you know that you can hold your own - even if they say you're illogical - because their insult or put down doesn't hold any weight - you don't care or internalize their judgment -your self esteem does not hinge on your ability to make a consistently logical argument - your thoughts are for you alone - you have nothing to prove per se - you know that your feelings are valid - feelings do matter

    ENTJ become more likeable when you recognize the huge contribution they can make to organizations. Their ability to be able to conceptualize the big picture and generate meaningful structures and new ideas is a gift. ENTJs also have wonderful leadership qualities. They can also be good to hang around them when you get them to loosen up and have fun. Although fun for an ENTJ can consist of debating for hours on end, it can be entertaining. My toleration for ENTJs is dependent on their level of Jness. If it's high, I'm turned off. It's an issue of my own - so when I witness it, I have a hard time not cringing. J is good insofar as it enables an individual to plan, organize and make decisions - however, not so good in human relationships when harsh judgments are made- you just alienate others (so has been my experience).
    That didn't sound from a place of "like"....

    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    Like you said, he's an ex for defined reasons. Most men aren't like this. But I do have to question the tact taken of micro-managing a husband. In doing so, you're enabling a mother-child, wendy/peterpan dynamic. There's no room for growth for him except in the direction you dictate and even then, he's probably going to be second-guessed so why try? This isn't to hurt you but it's something to consider.

    Can't disagree about working to your strengths. When doing so, it feels so right and natural.

    But once again, you're only seeing your vision as the only vision. It is why other people aren't viewed through objective eyes of competency since you're not seeing multiple potential realities. There's only one and it's yours. Open up the Ni gates more. Listen with your Te and Se.

    Even if there's only one most efficient potential reality, there are millions of ways to get to that reality.

    It doesn't have to be such a cynical view of fuck 'em if they can't get with my program. Give people room to breath and fly. Some will do so, others will fall flat on their faces. And that's okay too since people learn best on their faces.
    Fair enough, sounds like a patience issue then. Usually, time is a factor in most of my decisions and solutions. Anyone can make any decision and at some point, it will turn out to be the right one in retrospect. So yeah, time validates all things, also disqualifies them, but I don't live retrospectively....

    Unless I am in a very unhealthy frame of mind.

    What I am saying is, personally, the best opportunities and solutions are what make ME happy. It is a very ingrained way of thinking or being that needs to change if I am to stop these behaviors or feel content with the compromise.

    Anyway enough about me, back to the ENTJs.

  6. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by You'reWrongI'mRight View Post
    I don't weaver at my type. I am an eNTJ. I don't like people, they annoy me, mostly because I find most of the people around me too mentally inept or close minded. I enjoy speaking to those that I can learn from and share my mind with; I feed off of their energy. That does not make me any less assertive and outspoken than any other ENTJ. You seem to connect introversion with being weak and quiet.
    Don't interpret what I meant or take things badly, it's just a matter of fact of correctly typing yourself. From your post, it seems as though you don't feel comfortable about the "Extraversion" part of your typing. The question is thus: do *you* see something more positive in Extraversion than in Introversion? And would you, as such, see the ENTJ as more positive than the INTJ?

    You still don't get it. I'll give you an analogy.
    Just because you love strawberries, does not mean you're going to eat strawberries all the time. Sometimes eating too much strawberries make you sick. Same concept goes with leading for me. If I have to do it too much, I get exhausted and curse the existence of duty; having time to yourself, without responsibility for others is comforting in its own way.
    Why do you feel the need to justify this to me if it is self-evident to you?

    No, understanding that emotional sensitivity is important whether you agree or not is competence. While I agree, emotional sensitivity should have no place in most situations, that does not mean you must disregard it, as the entire world does not share the same view.There ARE and WILL be "emotional" people in power, there will be workers who are "emotional". Understanding the difference between yourself and others will go a long way in identifying what you need to work on for achieving harmony.
    Do you think that understanding your and other people's emotions should necessarily bring you towards harmony? I think that sounds slightly idealistic, as in practice, people can often be in relational conflict with each other even though they are apparently in harmony when they interact (no matter how openly emotional or sensitive to each others' emotions they appear to be). Often, open conflict of a cognitive nature (i.e. challenging discussion) helps to clear the air of problems and makes things more simple.

    Do you view conflict as antagonistic to harmony?

    You can be direct while remaining tactful.
    If someone makes a mistake, I'm not going to start yelling " are you #@#$ retarded? are you THAT incompetent?!?!". No, I would directly and calmly tell them they made a mistake and they need to fix it. There is no need to be rude.
    Would you feel guilty if you were rude? It's not as simple as having a rule or principle saying "never be rude" - there are complex social situations in which rudeness can be constructive.

    Unfortunately, the world does not share your point of you.
    Would you like others to share your points of view? Diversity is what makes life interesting and keeps you learning.

    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Yeah, you're right about that. I personally just try to find a niche where I can express myself, even "funnily", in my "true" fashion without toning down the competence factor - which means that I try to steer away from the HR deparment.. Daily conflict would wear me out, but I'm not an E-8 either, I believe 8s can stand such situations more easily.
    That's similar to what I do too. And, btw, steering away from the HR department is a good health policy.

    Understanding is generally differentiated from feeling. Oftentimes, depressed people understand how their feeling is irrational, unsubstantiated, yet present and inderhing their own life and work-performance. I'm in contact with some people which I believe to be both competent and touchy, and I can see how they understand their touchiness as being relatively useless yet present.
    Right, I think you're onto something. Maybe they need to feel a little less touchy to think more logically about their own feelings.

    A facet of emotional sensitivity which might be productive in a work-setting is its relation to coscentiousness: someone touchy will generally try to execute a given task at hir best in order to "please" (avoid anger) someone else. Thus, hir result might actually be better than someone else equally competent but less touchy.
    Good point. Apparently neuroticism is useful for group purposes, as it makes people more emotionally reactive to threats and problems in interpersonal situations. Combined with conscientiousness, it can indeed make them more readily able to act in favor of the group in a way which is in line with the work ethic. I would imagine this benefit to exist for subordinates but not for managers.

    Quote Originally Posted by ThatGirl View Post
    Exactly, but it doesn't do much for your overall trust and popularity level when on one occasion you can agree with someone's moral stance and they are happy to have you on their side. Then the next situation where they try to play the same card you tell them they are wrong and refuse to take a stance with them.

    The way I see it, if the situation isn't like the last, the rules can change. What may have been optimally moral in one circumstance may be the worst case scenario in another. To most people I have encountered this can seem very unpredictable, and like I am making up the rules as I go, or not a faithful friend. What they fail to recognize is the underlying principle it all stems from. Which is making the most informed and accurate choice for the circumstance, with fairness, and least consequence.
    Definitely, this is one of the issues with moral judgments of other people: their perception is often based on agreeabelenss with their existing attitudes, not on the real world benefit that you stance could provide them.

    Quote Originally Posted by LunarMoon View Post
    What you described sounds more like an ISTJ. They aren’t charismatic, tend to keep to themselves, and aren’t what one would call the center of attention, but since they come into work each day and perform their tasks exactly as is expected of them they’re promoted quickly and are the second wealthiest type in the world, next to ESTJs. As ThatGirl pointed out, ENTJs can make extremely good first impressions if they want to do so. The problem is that they need to want to do so.
    You're just biased against ISTJ's! You must be kidding me, ISTJ's are far more pleasant socially than ENTJ's are. Now, don't confuse pleasantness with a good impression.

    You're just a show-off!

    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    ENTJs seem to be perfectly lovely people...if they like you.
    How cute.

    Quote Originally Posted by Onceajoan View Post


    Type is NOT necessarily a place that a person feels comfortable being at. In fact, type isn't "supposed" to be anything at all. It does not represent a state of being, rather it is part of an overall personality assessment system which (hopefully - with no guarantee) provides some general insight into one's personality and interaction with other types. The map is not the territory (i.e. a "type" is not a "person"). Given the complexity of human experience how can anyone think that one personality system would be able to explain this with exact precision or with infallibility? As you are probably aware (since you seem to be educated on the subject), not everyone tests for a strong preference I or E, for example. Some people are neither I or E, but X. Same with the other preferences. On the various forums you find diversity among INTPs, INFPs, ESTJs, etc. because MBTI can not account for all of an individual's personalities and preferences. You don't get "pure" types - there will always be the N/A (IMO ) Also, as people grow and mature, their preferences may soften and shift. A younger person is more likely to mistype themselves because he or she does not have a strong sense of identity. However, this mistyping experience is part of the maturation and self reflective process itself. It really is not within the right of others to tell someone that he or she is or is not a particular type.
    OK, you want it... here you have it: you're smart and that's a good post.


    There does seem to be some logic here, insofar as it suggests two perspectives or sides - the position that one is taking things too personally while the other conveys a sense of superiority, in the eyes of the other. You assume that if someone is emotional or "takes something personally", that person is incapable of logic. As long as you keep your emotions locked away, you'll win by default, despite your faulty logic. I'm speaking hypothetically, of course, because I know your logic is beyond scrutiny.
    If you ever take anything personally, you're *by definition* not being logical. As for the rest, don't be intimidated by loud mouthed Te's. :steam: They're far better than those smooth talkers.

    How do ENTJs become likeable and less threatening to others?
    ENTJs become less threatening when you're not at all intimidated by them - when you figure out that they're often full of hot air - in a good way - you know that you can hold your own - even if they say you're illogical - because their insult or put down doesn't hold any weight - you don't care or internalize their judgment -your self esteem does not hinge on your ability to make a consistently logical argument - your thoughts are for you alone - you have nothing to prove per se - you know that your feelings are valid - feelings do matter
    Wait??? You are the feeling creatures that go all bananas about our logic, and we're full of hot air?!?! Are you kidding me?!?!? You know you need that logic to keep your calm. As for how much feelings matter, yes they do - especially mine. Don't confuse me with yours, thanks.

    ENTJ become more likeable when you recognize the huge contribution they can make to organizations. Their ability to be able to conceptualize the big picture and generate meaningful structures and new ideas is a gift. ENTJs also have wonderful leadership qualities. They can also be good to hang around them when you get them to loosen up and have fun. Although fun for an ENTJ can consist of debating for hours on end, it can be entertaining.
    You know what, you have your way around with flattery. It's nice to read, but I don't believe any of it.

    My toleration for ENTJs is dependent on their level of Jness. If it's high, I'm turned off. It's an issue of my own - so when I witness it, I have a hard time not cringing. J is good insofar as it enables an individual to plan, organize and make decisions - however, not so good in human relationships when harsh judgments are made- you just alienate others (so has been my experience).
    What's wrong with alienating people?

  7. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by Falcon View Post
    Don't interpret what I meant or take things badly, it's just a matter of fact of correctly typing yourself.
    Oh of course not, there is no reason to. : )


    Quote Originally Posted by Falcon View Post
    From your post, it seems as though you don't feel comfortable about the "Extraversion" part of your typing. The question is thus: do *you* see something more positive in Extraversion than in Introversion? And would you, as such, see the ENTJ as more positive than the INTJ?
    Positively relating to me. Although I find the workings of an INTJ equally fascinating.



    Why do you feel the need to justify this to me if it is self-evident to you?
    Well, I asked myself the same question originally. I don't feel the need to justify. However, I also thought it might be useful if I gave a clear and precise idea of how I saw it.

    Do you think that understanding your and other people's emotions should necessarily bring you towards harmony? I think that sounds slightly idealistic, as in practice, people can often be in relational conflict with each other even though they are apparently in harmony when they interact (no matter how openly emotional or sensitive to each others' emotions they appear to be).
    Idealistic? yes, possible? Yes. All the time? No.
    Conflict is bound to happen with people, thats a matter of life. Harmony in a sense is about having things run smoothing, with minimal error. It's not really about understanding someones emotional stance, but understanding their behavior, observing the way they react to things, their beliefs, etc; if you have collected enough information in your mental database, you'll be prepared to react for whatever might happen; having a step up on someone reduces the damage they might inflict on the environment around you.
    In a work environmental, you're not looking to make friends, you want people to get their job done and do it right. Workers are bound to have a crappy day, being in a negative disposition is bound to effect their work performance. Knowing how they prefer to be communicated with, might limit any negative outbursts, and might even improve their disposition; thus creating a harmony/ or a calm.
    remember it's not about sympathy. You don't feel for these people, but you understand why, and how they came about to feeling a certain way. It's not about agreeing with their reactions, or w.e they're feeling. It's about putting yourself in their shoes, being objective, and not only seeing your " I don't want emotional bullshit" view. To be a great leader, you must understand the needs and wants of your people.

    Often, open conflict of a cognitive nature (i.e. challenging discussion) helps to clear the air of problems and makes things more simple.
    I agree with you, it is useful for a learning environment. Emotions should not be involved in debate of any sort. Sadly, people always misinterpret my enthusiasm with aggressiveness. Talking out and facing a problem is the best thing people can do. It's priority. You should not walk on egg shells if there is a conflict at hand, But also consider, if you want to be understood, and get your point a cross properly, you have to know who you are speaking to, and how they like to take their coffee.



    Do you view conflict as antagonistic to harmony?
    Absolutely not, like I mentioned earlier, it can be a positive learning experience for both people involved. . But unnecessary conflict, like drama, etc, is antagonistic in a sense, making others feel uncomfortable for no viable reason--also unnecessary.
    Since this is about if me. I love conflict, I thrive under pressure, and seek to be challenged. In a sense I don't like harmony, but I wasn't speaking about myself earlier, I was speaking about what people commonly want. People think and view the world around them differently.


    Would you feel guilty if you were rude? It's not as simple as having a rule or principle saying "never be rude" - there are complex social situations in which rudeness can be constructive.
    This question made me laugh. Because I come off as rude quite often, without intending to. I try to be tactful, but sometimes I say things that I personally wouldn't find rude, while others might.
    Rude in a sense is being ill-mannered, which I am not. However, I am blunt and honest; which others see as rude, instead of direct.
    I never feel guilty about being rude. I rarely feel guilty for anything.


    Would you like others to share your points of view? Diversity is what makes life interesting and keeps you learning.
    Both. I like learning, so if someone shares a different point of view, I can obviously widen my scope of knowledge in that particular subject. We can share common interests and discuss WHY we see things the way we do.

    It's also not fun to always have someone that dis/agrees with you.

  8. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by You'reWrongI'mRight View Post
    Positively relating to me. Although I find the workings of an INTJ equally fascinating.
    OK, because there is no type inherently better than other. Indeed, value evaluation is relative to philosophical assumptions and hence cannot be defined with an absolute value of truth.

    Well, I asked myself the same question originally. I don't feel the need to justify. However, I also thought it might be useful if I gave a clear and precise idea of how I saw it.
    You definitely shouldn't, or else you are put in an affectively defensive stance if you are not completely confident about it. From a logical standpoint, you are right, because E and I are merely preferences, and you can do both if you want. Furthermore, there is no scientific backing behind the idea that people have a preference in personality traits. It is theoretical, but that does not make it less interesting. However, I was not going to say this until your affective/relational stance was adequate to say so.

    Also, the degree of E in ENTJ's may come across as less than usual in their life due to the NTJ dimensions. You may be in a situation where you have become less E than usual. If this is the case, remember that if extraversion is your preference, you should go for it. Take chances, take risks, be bold, assert yourself - these are all things that will make you feel positive as an ENTJ.

    Idealistic? yes, possible? Yes. All the time? No.
    Conflict is bound to happen with people, thats a matter of life. Harmony in a sense is about having things run smoothing, with minimal error. It's not really about understanding someones emotional stance, but understanding their behavior, observing the way they react to things, their beliefs, etc; if you have collected enough information in your mental database, you'll be prepared to react for whatever might happen; having a step up on someone reduces the damage they might inflict on the environment around you.
    In a work environmental, you're not looking to make friends, you want people to get their job done and do it right. Workers are bound to have a crappy day, being in a negative disposition is bound to effect their work performance. Knowing how they prefer to be communicated with, might limit any negative outbursts, and might even improve their disposition; thus creating a harmony/ or a calm.
    remember it's not about sympathy. You don't feel for these people, but you understand why, and how they came about to feeling a certain way. It's not about agreeing with their reactions, or w.e they're feeling. It's about putting yourself in their shoes, being objective, and not only seeing your " I don't want emotional bullshit" view. To be a great leader, you must understand the needs and wants of your people.
    I agree wholly with the first part, and to a certain extent with the second. I have thought similar things due to internalization of idealistic definitions of social competence and leadership that were not grounded in empirical evidence or my own experiences. What you say is what we can hear many people say about leadership, and especially more idealistic folks who would like to say that to be a great leader you have to understand the needs and wants of your people. It's true, but I don't like the way it is framed. It is a question of paradigm.

    I would put it this way: there is no such thing as "leadership": it's an idealistic concept. There is only competence. "Leadership" is a value judgment which comes from an affective stance. The problem with the word "leadership" is that there is the idea that some people are leaders, others are not. This is incorrect. Then you have this idea of the "needs" and "wants" of followers, as if these were idiosyncratic and specific to their personalities. "Leader" is just a social role, and is a personality attribution made by people who see somebody who is, in fact, just being reasonable and having his feet on the ground.

    I would prefer to say that there are different levels of skill, and that it makes sense to attribute tasks and roles to people depending on their skills. It is also logical that the most knowledgeable and competent person gets to coordinate role and task attribution. There is no value in this: it's just a job. Once other people develop their skills and becoming competent also, they can also get to coordinate tasks and roles for other people.

    Seen this way, there is no such thing as "leaders" and "followers". There are only people who work and learn at the same time.

    "Leader" or "Followers" are adjectives that hinder competence because they get associated with the self-concept or identity of a person, biasing their perception and judgments.

    I agree with you, it is useful for a learning environment. Emotions should not be involved in debate of any sort. Sadly, people always misinterpret my enthusiasm with aggressiveness. Talking out and facing a problem is the best thing people can do. It's priority. You should not walk on egg shells if there is a conflict at hand, But also consider, if you want to be understood, and get your point a cross properly, you have to know who you are speaking to, and how they like to take their coffee.
    I also thought that it was unfortunate. But if you really get at their feelings, you see that it is quite funny and absurd. If somebody says that you are being aggressive when you know you're just enthusiastic, trust your own feeling (I know that NT's can second guess themselves in this area) and dismiss them: "you're just being too sensitive" with a big smile.

    Absolutely not, like I mentioned earlier, it can be a positive learning experience for both people involved. . But unnecessary conflict, like drama, etc, is antagonistic in a sense, making others feel uncomfortable for no viable reason--also unnecessary.
    Since this is about if me. I love conflict, I thrive under pressure, and seek to be challenged. In a sense I don't like harmony, but I wasn't speaking about myself earlier, I was speaking about what people commonly want. People think and view the world around them differently.
    Definitely, drama is not necessary, but that's what you think as an ENTJ. You can also think it this way: your role in drama is to remind others how stupid drama is!

    People commonly say they want harmony. But if you look at all the drama they create, it seems like they like "mental" harmony but like "emotional" conflict. In other words, they don't like to be challenge intellectually but they like to complain about people on and on, and linger on past issues, playing blame games and doing guilt trips. It's everywhere in society. People always say they like harmony and do everything to present a nice front.

    Some people are expert at claiming they like harmony, avoiding any kind of discussion, yet their actions show emotional/relational conflict. In truth, these people are simply scared of looking bad and would prefer to be secretly, rather than overtly, competitive.

    This question made me laugh. Because I come off as rude quite often, without intending to. I try to be tactful, but sometimes I say things that I personally wouldn't find rude, while others might.
    Rude in a sense is being ill-mannered, which I am not. However, I am blunt and honest; which others see as rude, instead of direct.
    I never feel guilty about being rude. I rarely feel guilty for anything.
    OK, that's what I meant. Not really rude, but blunt/honest which some people can see as rude.

    I'm sure you do feel guilty for some things: but it's better to feel guilty according to your own terms than because somebody is trying to make you feel guilty for no logical reason.

    Both. I like learning, so if someone shares a different point of view, I can obviously widen my scope of knowledge in that particular subject. We can share common interests and discuss WHY we see things the way we do.
    Yes, but it sounds a bit too "nice".

    It's also not fun to always have someone that dis/agrees with you.
    It should not be a question of fun or not: logic is fun for its own sake, it does not matter if you are wrong or right.

    To be honest, the impression I have of you, reading between the lines, is that you are an ENTJ who has been facing various life circumstances making you second guess some of your behaviors. It also seems like you have internalized too much idealistic talk about people and relationships, which could be detrimental to your well-being as an ENTJ and lower your mood. This idealistic talk could bring you to take things "too seriously" concerning relationships and emotions, something NT's are prone to do if they're too logical. I think that the paradox is that you need to engage more in your preferences, E, and NTJ, to start taking feelings and relationships less seriously and more as some form of playful exchange. It may also make you start to like people by, strangely, getting used to telling them off for things or asserting yourself to them.

  9. #209
    Aquaria mrcockburn's Avatar
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    Being a mild N and a mild J helps me. I can easily put on an ESTP fun-loving persona and dredge out a bit of Fe. It helps and it's necessary at times in order to win over people who can't be persuaded by logic.

    I also happen to have a "cute girly" voice, much to my chagrin. So I think this automatically puts people at ease, sometimes too much at ease.
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  10. #210
    Senior Member LunarMoon's Avatar
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    Well, this seems to be relevent.
    In a the recent issue of the Bulletin for Psychological Type (Vol. 29, No.3 2006), one of the authors, Henry “Dick” Thompson (2006, p. 18), reported on some of his research into EI and Type. One finding I found quite interesting was that of the 5 personality types with the highest overall EQ score, three preferred Feeling and two preferred Thinking. In fact the top 2 were ENTJ and ESTJ ! (followed by ENFJ, ESFP, and ENFP). Of the 5 personality types with the lowest overall EQ score, three were Feeling types and two were Thinking types. And surprisingly, the bottom two were Feeling types: ISFJ and INFP! People looking for a correlation between EQ and Feeling won’t find it in Thompson’s research! About the only conclusion Thompson seemed willing to risk from this study was it appears that the EQ measures have a bias towards Extraversion.
    http://entjforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=132
    Surgeons replace one of your neurons with a microchip that duplicates its input-output functions. You feel and behave exactly as before. Then they replace a second one, and a third one, and so on, until more and more of your brain becomes silicon. Since each microchip does exactly what the neuron did, your behavior and memory never change. Do you even notice the difference? Does it feel like dying? Is some other conscious entity moving in with you?
    -Steven Pinker on the Ship of Theseus Paradox

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