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  1. #191
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatGirl View Post
    See the end part of that I have tried, but it makes me feel a little claustrophobic, like at any moment I might slip and show my true colors. This would completely shock someone when I fall back into my default. So I just kind of put it all out there, and let others decide if that is something they are capable of handling or not. Then I get to pleasantly surprise people, by not being an ass every now and then.

    I think if I wanted to really address the issue in a way that is both comfortable and sensible to me, I would have to work on my ability to trust the capabilities of others and how they prioritize. That seems like the only thing that would get me in harmony with others, but I don't see that happening any time soon.

    Since most people don't think like me, and I am very specific in my vision of what should be happening for the best result possible, it is easier to just bypass others, and cut to the chase.

    Idk, all I do know is that if I watch one more person become exhausted under me, start to distrust me, or down right fear me, as though I am someone more or less capable than I am, or as though my personality is more significant than my ideas, I am going to give up people for good.
    It is the belief that ENTJs know what's best for everyone else, that leads us down the garden path towards narcissism. Fight it. KNOW you're human, capable of all the fallibilities. Our vision isn't the only vision.

  2. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    From a strictly utilitarian point of view:

    That depends on the setting, doesn't it. It might be argued that being funny and somewhat diplomatic can be a competence required in a social setting. On the contrary, I do agree that if you're working it's generally better to focus on competence; however you can't be excessively rude/blunt otherwise you might hinder the performance of someone very competent but more emotionally touchy.
    The issue is that perception of competence and liking are not independent from each other, making it so that it is difficult to be (perceived as) both competent and likeable. When it does happen, the result most of the time triggers a feeling of admiration. This feeling which is initially pleasing becomes intolerable over extended periods of time to most people unless there is a social distance. Indeed, it gradually builds up to resentment, dissapointment, and sometimes hatred because the admired person ultimately will fail to live up to the moral expectancies of the admirer.

    The concepts of social skills and social competence are somewhat shaky in social science. Indeed, it is difficult to measure social competence like you could measure mathematical competence. This is due to the fact that social competence is highly relative, and it's perception is inherently tied to feelings of liking elicited in the perceiver. It is also culturally specific, and cannot be easily transposed to other cultures, and these can co-exist in the same country or organization (i.e. culture of an HR vs IT department). Hence, it can be argued as to whether being funny and diplomatic are related to competence. It could even be possible to conceptualize them as being the absence of competence. Indeed, often in order to be funny or diplomatic, you must avoid showing too much competence.

    It is debatable whether it is possible to be both very competent and emotionally touchy. Indeed, high competence would tend to imply the understanding that emotional sensitivity is absurd and that no one should take any comment too personally. Emotionally touchy people in positions of responsibility can pose a threat because they may take an impulsive action, disregarding competence, in order to satisfy an impulsive feeling that they can't control. Being careful around them only delays the moment where there will be a problem. It is better to be direct with them, so they take themselves less seriously and toughen up. You also avoid walking on eggshells in the future.

    Quote Originally Posted by bcubchgo View Post
    I believe my sig says SLOEI / Inquisitive.. where did you read that? I was referring not to emotional instability but being "in touch" with my emotions. You can't just go for your entire life ignoring your own emotions. At some point you have to reach into yourself and understand your inner motivations from a non-detached standpoint. Otherwise you don't grow.

    Also, nice judgement call on the second part - for the most part I do say what I think. And if I am insecure, what's it to you? Sometimes being an ass and screwing people over is not the best way to respond to the situation. A mature ENTJ will realize this and try not overreact, unless the pressure is really on. Telling people the "truth" under the guise of authoritarianism doesn't always work in your favor as an ENTJ. Sometimes it works but more often than not you isolate yourself.
    You shouldn't take things personally and be insecure - this could cloud your reasoning and judgments. Toughen yourself up and don't take things people say badly.

    If you were really in touch with your feelings, you would be secure and emotionally stable. Your emotional insecurity indicates that you are not really in touch with how you feel.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    It is the belief that ENTJs know what's best for everyone else, that leads us down the garden path towards narcissism. Fight it. KNOW you're human, capable of all the fallibilities. Our vision isn't the only vision.
    What leads is to narcissism is the lack of control over a repressed need, normal to all human beings, to be liked. This need is problematic for a leader and will lead him to select followers who comfort his vision instead of providing constructive input.

    It is paradoxically when we are the most focused on competence, and the most rigid about logic, that we are also the most open to suggestions. Indeed, the only thing that matters then is the task and the quality of the work, not who came with the idea.

  3. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by Falcon View Post
    It sounds like you don't know much about the MBTI, then.

    As an ENTJ, the only thing that matters is competence. You don't come across as ENTJ at all if you say you don't like being a leader - you should question your own typing for saying things as blatantly in contradiction with the description of your type.
    I think its funny you think I should change types because I don't like leading 100% of the time.
    To be fair, I'm introverted for an eNTJ; that means, I usually like working alone, because I achieve maximum results and people generally stand in my way.
    When I do choose( by will) lead, I love doing it.
    Sometimes, a group is too incompetent to lead, and they're only a hassle to involve one's self with, or maybe it's nice not to have to make all of the decisions and take a break from every day life. Its called having options. That doesn't mean I will sit aside and let idiocy unfold.This just means, that if someone is competent enough, i'll give them the lead every now and then, and pick up if they fall behind( so long as I remain confident in their decision making abilities)


    You keep judging what is "normal" about an entj. No one is strict of the description. Sounds like you're trying to be the core definition of an ENTJ. That's fine if it gets your kicks.

    All of this of course in a work/group/school environment. I don't apply the same rules to my intimate life, as I tend to be more lenient, yet still value competence.

    Competence matters, but it sure as hell isn't the only thing that matters about an individual unless you're applying the concept to all sorts of capabilities. There are other valuable attributes others might present. You can't live in a work environmental all the time, like bcbchgo said, you're going to end up a sad lonely man.

    You need to develop your inferior functions.



    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    From a strictly utilitarian point of view:

    That depends on the setting, doesn't it. It might be argued that being funny and somewhat diplomatic can be a competence required in a social setting. On the contrary, I do agree that if you're working it's generally better to focus on competence; however you can't be excessively rude/blunt otherwise you might hinder the performance of someone very competent but more emotionally touchy.

  4. #194
    Senior Member bcubchgo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Falcon View Post
    Stuff
    It's not so much that i'm taking this personally but it's the fact that you apparently know it all when you don't.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    SCOEI / Inquisitive

  5. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by You'reWrongI'mRight View Post
    I think its funny you think I should change types because I don't like leading 100% of the time.
    To be fair, I'm introverted for an eNTJ; that means, I usually like working alone, because I achieve maximum results and people generally stand in my way.
    When I do choose( by will) lead, I love doing it.
    Sometimes, a group is too incompetent to lead, and they're only a hassle to involve one's self with, or maybe it's nice not to have to make all of the decisions and take a break from every day life. Its called having options. That doesn't mean I will sit aside and let idiocy unfold.This just means, that if someone is competent enough, i'll give them the lead every now and then, and pick up if they fall behind( so long as I remain confident in their decision making abilities)


    You keep judging what is "normal" about an entj. No one is strict of the description. Sounds like you're trying to be the core definition of an ENTJ. That's fine if it gets your kicks.

    All of this of course in a work/group/school environment. I don't apply the same rules to my intimate life, as I tend to be more lenient, yet still value competence.

    Competence matters, but it sure as hell isn't the only thing that matters about an individual unless you're applying the concept to all sorts of capabilities. There are other valuable attributes others might present. You can't live in a work environmental all the time, like bcbchgo said, you're going to end up a sad lonely man.

    You need to develop your inferior functions.
    You can't see yourself as introverted and identify with the typical ENTJ descriptions. Indeed, these clearly emphasize how assertive and outspoken we are, which are key facets of the Extraversion domain. Also, you say "maybe it's nice to take a break". But being ENTJ is about having a preference for leading and feeling comfortable when you are in leadership.

    The problem is that you come across as unsure of yourself and wavering. Type is supposed to represent the place where you feel comfortable being at and what you like doing. And you don't come across as liking to do what ENTJ's do.

    Quote Originally Posted by bcubchgo View Post
    It's not so much that i'm taking this personally but it's the fact that you apparently know it all when you don't.
    Now that was not a very logical answer, it seems like you lost control of your feelings on that one.

  6. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by Falcon View Post
    You can't see yourself as introverted and identify with the typical ENTJ descriptions. Indeed, these clearly emphasize how assertive and outspoken we are, which are key facets of the Extraversion domain. Also, you say "maybe it's nice to take a break". But being ENTJ is about having a preference for leading and feeling comfortable when you are in leadership.
    I don't weaver at my type. I am an eNTJ. I don't like people, they annoy me, mostly because I find most of the people around me too mentally inept or close minded. I enjoy speaking to those that I can learn from and share my mind with; I feed off of their energy. That does not make me any less assertive and outspoken than any other ENTJ. You seem to connect introversion with being weak and quiet.

    You still don't get it. I'll give you an analogy.
    Just because you love strawberries, does not mean you're going to eat strawberries all the time. Sometimes eating too much strawberries make you sick. Same concept goes with leading for me. If I have to do it too much, I get exhausted and curse the existence of duty; having time to yourself, without responsibility for others is comforting in its own way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Falcon View Post
    Hence, it can be argued as to whether being funny and diplomatic are related to competence. It could even be possible to conceptualize them as being the absence of competence. Indeed, often in order to be funny or diplomatic, you must avoid showing too much competence.
    Depends on the situation, and the individual. There is a degree of competence if one can be funny and diplomatic, while achieving his/her goa. While being funny, diplomatic, and result-less can qualify as useless and attribute a lack of competence.

    It is debatable whether it is possible to be both very competent and emotionally touchy. Indeed, high competence would tend to imply the understanding that emotional sensitivity is absurd and that no one should take any comment too personally. Emotionally touchy people in positions of responsibility can pose a threat because they may take an impulsive action, disregarding competence, in order to satisfy an impulsive feeling that they can't control. Being careful around them only delays the moment where there will be a problem. It is better to be direct with them, so they take themselves less seriously and toughen up. You also avoid walking on eggshells in the future.
    No, understanding that emotional sensitivity is important whether you agree or not is competence. While I agree, emotional sensitivity should have no place in most situations, that does not mean you must disregard it, as the entire world does not share the same view.There ARE and WILL be "emotional" people in power, there will be workers who are "emotional". Understanding the difference between yourself and others will go a long way in identifying what you need to work on for achieving harmony.
    You can be direct while remaining tactful.
    If someone makes a mistake, I'm not going to start yelling " are you #@#$ retarded? are you THAT incompetent?!?!". No, I would directly and calmly tell them they made a mistake and they need to fix it. There is no need to be rude.





    normal to all human beings, to be liked. This need is problematic for a leader and will lead him to select followers who comfort his vision instead of providing constructive input.

    It is paradoxically when we are the most focused on competence, and the most rigid about logic, that we are also the most open to suggestions. Indeed, the only thing that matters then is the task and the quality of the work, not who came with the idea.
    Indeed.

    Unfortunately, the world does not share your point of you.

  7. #197
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Falcon View Post
    The issue is that perception of competence and liking are not independent from each other, making it so that it is difficult to be (perceived as) both competent and likeable. When it does happen, the result most of the time triggers a feeling of admiration. This feeling which is initially pleasing becomes intolerable over extended periods of time to most people unless there is a social distance. Indeed, it gradually builds up to resentment, dissapointment, and sometimes hatred because the admired person ultimately will fail to live up to the moral expectancies of the admirer.

    The concepts of social skills and social competence are somewhat shaky in social science. Indeed, it is difficult to measure social competence like you could measure mathematical competence. This is due to the fact that social competence is highly relative, and it's perception is inherently tied to feelings of liking elicited in the perceiver. It is also culturally specific, and cannot be easily transposed to other cultures, and these can co-exist in the same country or organization (i.e. culture of an HR vs IT department). Hence, it can be argued as to whether being funny and diplomatic are related to competence. It could even be possible to conceptualize them as being the absence of competence. Indeed, often in order to be funny or diplomatic, you must avoid showing too much competence.
    Yeah, you're right about that. I personally just try to find a niche where I can express myself, even "funnily", in my "true" fashion without toning down the competence factor - which means that I try to steer away from the HR deparment.. Daily conflict would wear me out, but I'm not an E-8 either, I believe 8s can stand such situations more easily.

    It is debatable whether it is possible to be both very competent and emotionally touchy. Indeed, high competence would tend to imply the understanding that emotional sensitivity is absurd and that no one should take any comment too personally.
    Understanding is generally differentiated from feeling. Oftentimes, depressed people understand how their feeling is irrational, unsubstantiated, yet present and inderhing their own life and work-performance. I'm in contact with some people which I believe to be both competent and touchy, and I can see how they understand their touchiness as being relatively useless yet present.

    A facet of emotional sensitivity which might be productive in a work-setting is its relation to coscentiousness: someone touchy will generally try to execute a given task at hir best in order to "please" (avoid anger) someone else. Thus, hir result might actually be better than someone else equally competent but less touchy.
    ENTj 7-3-8 sx/sp

  8. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by Falcon View Post

    I agree. I couldn't care less about morality as it is commonly defined. Some people that appear "good" cause with actions the worst consequences for others and a system.
    Exactly, but it doesn't do much for your overall trust and popularity level when on one occasion you can agree with someone's moral stance and they are happy to have you on their side. Then the next situation where they try to play the same card you tell them they are wrong and refuse to take a stance with them.

    The way I see it, if the situation isn't like the last, the rules can change. What may have been optimally moral in one circumstance may be the worst case scenario in another. To most people I have encountered this can seem very unpredictable, and like I am making up the rules as I go, or not a faithful friend. What they fail to recognize is the underlying principle it all stems from. Which is making the most informed and accurate choice for the circumstance, with fairness, and least consequence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    It is the belief that ENTJs know what's best for everyone else, that leads us down the garden path towards narcissism. Fight it. KNOW you're human, capable of all the fallibilities. Our vision isn't the only vision.
    Yeah, but I don't think I know what is best for everyone, it gets a little murkier when I am sharing consequences with someone else. For example, I could't care less what you do with your time, as long as that is YOUR thing. If I am working with you, or in an intimate relationship or friendship, I don't want to be subject to cleaning up sloppy mistakes. This was most evident in my ex husband, who drove me crazy with not thinking things through and racking up consequences to the point I turned into a non stop micro-manager. Hence, EX husband.

    I do know that I am human, I am not great at everything, but what I am great at is collaboration and compromise. Figuring out situations like puzzles and working them to the best case scenarios. Everyone else has their strengths, it would be nice to be able to fully exorcise mine without feeling like the bad guy all the time. Like I am over stepping my boundaries, or taking someone else's will away.

    It is a tricky balance to feel you are living up to your strengths, while respecting others ability. It may BE narcissistic, but a lot of the time, when you sit down and think about my solutions and ideas you can see the value. They are like a work of art, specifically built to serve a purpose, while incorporating all the important dynamics people say they cant live without or compromise on. Getting something working better, without sacrificing the strengths it was built on in the first place.

    I rarely get to show that side, because of all the other superficial dynamics that go on. Like politics, hierarchies, social niceties, and so forth. It has gotten to the point, I don't even try anymore, because the time it takes to get an "in" the solution is obsolete, the circumstances have changed, and then I look crazy for producing the next result instead of the one I was originally presenting....if that makes any sense. Then I have to back track and get people on board again.

    That's why it is easier to just say fuck it, and handle your own, and not give a shit about others, their goals, or whatever. Though I understand this is in no way helping myself or the dynamics I am working with in the long run. Its weird.

  9. #199
    Senior Member LunarMoon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Falcon View Post
    You're not entirely incorrect - it depends how you define "likeable" and "liking". At first, ENTJ's are simply not friendly or likeable people. They are not socially pleasant people and they are not people to whom you feel attracted to especially.

    Paradoxically, the fact that they are not inherently likeable at first is also what makes them, in the long term more likeable that anybody else.
    What you described sounds more like an ISTJ. They aren’t charismatic, tend to keep to themselves, and aren’t what one would call the center of attention, but since they come into work each day and perform their tasks exactly as is expected of them they’re promoted quickly and are the second wealthiest type in the world, next to ESTJs. As ThatGirl pointed out, ENTJs can make extremely good first impressions if they want to do so. The problem is that they need to want to do so.

    Quote Originally Posted by ThatGirl View Post
    Most people, the longer they get to know us, will start to think we are morally corrupt (since there is no social nicety we will NOT break if need be), manipulative (since we will always spin a situation to incorporate our favor as well, not that we disregard others, but it runs a history of always looking like we are getting our way. The way I see it, we TOO are getting our way), and sometimes down right mean (since we aren't really sensitive beasts, most of the things that come out of our mouth WE wouldn't consider offensive, so we don't assume anyone would, or they are stupid).
    I’ve never had this problem. My relationships tend to be more defined by the fact that other people want to maintain closer friendships with me but that I’m so obsessed with my work that I lose contact and come off as neglectful. If people misunderstand your intentions then explain them. If they believe that you’re serving only yourself then do the opposite and explain your plans from the focus of what’s in it for them. ENTJs are rarely the type to whine about their life problems and do nothing to solve them.
    Surgeons replace one of your neurons with a microchip that duplicates its input-output functions. You feel and behave exactly as before. Then they replace a second one, and a third one, and so on, until more and more of your brain becomes silicon. Since each microchip does exactly what the neuron did, your behavior and memory never change. Do you even notice the difference? Does it feel like dying? Is some other conscious entity moving in with you?
    -Steven Pinker on the Ship of Theseus Paradox

  10. #200
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    ENTJs seem to be perfectly lovely people...if they like you.

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