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  1. #41
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    This is all very interesting but not relevant. We look only at the information provided by the author to see if its plausible or not.
    Since your interpretation of the author's information and your understanding of his situation is based upon your own background and experience and application of what you think is reasonable, I think it's highly relevant to question your credibility to comment on matters like this.

    (But you know all that, right?)

    If you'd like to beat this to death more, PM me instead of sidetracking the thread, or I can move this chunk and we can discuss it elsewhere if you'd rather do it publicly, it doesn't matter to me.

    In any case, you should read cafe's response. It's the difference between disconnected intellectualism vs hands-on practical experience.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  2. #42
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Owl View Post
    ...
    I told her early on about how the pastor needs to be informed if we want to become more than friends. In light of what happened the other night, I'd like to bring this up again; this is why it's so important for me to know if her actions were merely friendly. If I read more into her actions than is there, I could make a real fool of myself.

    Thanks! Erring on the side of caution is probably the best way to go, but the romantic idealist in me wants everything to be perfect.

    I've no idea what she'd type as. Probably an extrovert... and an F... but maybe I've not yet seen her primary, and I'm only interacting with an extroverted auxiliary F? I'd think N over S too... I'd guess ENFJ or INFJ.
    It seems she knows less than I about the rules of courtship, and I know next to nothing; and 21 year olds are not known for their temperance...

    She's not shy when it comes to touching others, (much less so than I, at least), but she doesn't touch everyone.
    Now that we know that she touches other people, too, I believe all the more that you would be less likely to humiliate yourself if you err on the side of caution, and assume it didn't "mean" anything in particular.

    The thing is, she'd have to meet with the pastor too, and I'm not sure she wants to do that yet--she's just getting to know him. Letting people into these vulnerable areas and letting them poke around isn't easy, especially when the purpose is to expose where you come short.
    Yes, but an xNFJ won't struggle with that as much as some other types might, I don't believe.

    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    ...
    INTP men sometimes really like to be passive and really like to get all the data so they can know for sure they aren't going to fail and look stupid. This is not really a very effective way to go about things.
    ...
    And that definitely looks like what is going on here, but hey you can't fault someone for acting their type. But just want to say that you made some great points, cafe.

  3. #43
    Senior Member ThatsWhatHeSaid's Avatar
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    Okay, here's what I think, based on your response to me and to others...

    I think you should flirt back with her. Flirting is a combination of playing and teasing. That's pretty much it. It's something that you can enjoy too. It's for both of you. If you're enjoying it too, you'll know when to stop so it doesn't go too overboard. I bet you're already doing a great job, because she's obviously digging you, based on all the footsie stuff. As for teasing, you're just sending some mixed signals. It doesn't have to be a burdensome task or a INTP intellectual project, just send out suggestions that you might be interested in her. Touch gently (not in the genital area) and say things that sound like you're interested. This should be hard because...well, you are interested. If she tries to call you on it, just say... "hm, I dunno, maybe!" and smile gently. People are probably going to say that sending mixed signals isn't a good precedent for a relationship, but I say it's a fun and good one. If you notice she's suffering due to your mixed signals, then you can adjust by giving her a clue that deep down you're really interested, but most likely she'll just be having fun like you are.

    Then next issue is going to be taking a plunge into dating. I don't really get the pastor thing (because I'm an atheist and have little respect for tradition) but whatever, that's your thing. I think the thing to aim for with the pastor is to make it a seamless, natural transition. I think that'll depend most on YOUR perception of the pastor thing. If you treat it like no big deal, it won't be a big deal. But you have to believe that deep down. It's like a mom dealing with a child who gets hurt. If the mom caring and affirms that the kid is okay and that it's no big deal, the child will accept that as a fact and stay calm. If the mom freaks out and looks nervous, the kid will start crying. If you act like it's cool, it'll be cool. For instance, you might just propose at the end of the date, very casually, "so I think it's time we go visit Pastor Jesus and give this a try. Agreed?" and smile innocently. No big deal, right? Simple.

  4. #44
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Since your interpretation of the author's information and your understanding of his situation is based upon your own background and experience and application of what you think is reasonable, I think it's highly relevant to question your credibility to comment on matters like this..
    Yeah, just like how when we look at a video of someone stealing, and we decide if this person is a thief or not based on whether or not we have stolen before, or we approve of the activity, and not because of what we saw on tape.

    You know, our ideas of what is reasonable and how the world works, for instance, 2 plus 2 is 4, water boils when its hot, freezes when its cold etc, is all based on our own experiences and background , and that first and foremost! Its only an opinion. Changes from person to person and because you feel it, it is true for you, maybe not true for me! But who cares!? Remember, all a matter of Feel! Trust it, I exhort you to!

    And you know, what good is 'intellectualism', its all only a theory right? If you want to get out to the real world, you've got to get out there with your sense of smell, sight, touch, everything! Trust your instincts. As for 2 plus 2 making 4 and Einstein discovering relativity, its all only ideas! Not the real world! Cursed ivory tower!

    Hehe, but you know all that right?
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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  5. #45
    ✿ڿڰۣஇღ♥ wut ♥ღஇڿڰۣ✿ digesthisickness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I'm trying to figure out if the woman is supposed to just come right out and say 'Owl, I like you and I think you are attractive. I believe I'd like to marry you and have your babies. Please talk to the pastor and buy me a ring. Now kiss me you fool!!' or what.

    INTP men sometimes really like to be passive and really like to get all the data so they can know for sure they aren't going to fail and look stupid. This is not really a very effective way to go about things.

    When you are passive and you expect the other person to take all the initiative, what you are likely to end up with is a kind of a default relationship with a controlling person because those are the kinds of women who don't mind taking all the initiative. Later, the INTP man realizes that he is in a relationship with a controlling person, feels trapped and is repeatedly being manipulated and having his autonomy violated.

    Then you end up with a guy that resents his wife, but either loves his kids too much to leave or can't quite bring himself to actively bring closure to the relationship by ending it. He, instead, passive-aggressively (and maybe unconsciously) tries to make the relationship bad enough that the woman will finally get enough of it and leave him because he still refuses to take the initiative.

    I don't call being passive and refusing to take risks or initiative having a backbone. I call it cowardice. The woman here is under some pretty heavy constraints. She is required to be passive while Owl, if he is interested in pursuing the relationship is required to take the initiative.

    Yes, he can speak with her and try to get a better idea about her intentions, but ultimately, he's going to have to take a risk and it's going to be scary and he's not going to feel comfortable doing it. It might turn out the girl wasn't serious at all or it might turn out she wants to marry him the minute they get the legal and religious go-ahead and jump his bones until the cows come home, but he's probably not going to know for sure until he's put his balls on the table.
    very well said.
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  6. #46
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTJMom View Post
    But just want to say that you made some great points, cafe.
    +1
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  7. #47
    Senior Member ceecee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Owl View Post
    I told her early on about how the pastor needs to be informed if we want to become more than friends. In light of what happened the other night, I'd like to bring this up again; this is why it's so important for me to know if her actions were merely friendly. If I read more into her actions than is there, I could make a real fool of myself.
    .
    Why does a third party need to be involved with you and her?


    The thing is, she'd have to meet with the pastor too, and I'm not sure she wants to do that yet--she's just getting to know him. Letting people into these vulnerable areas and letting them poke around isn't easy, especially when the purpose is to expose where you come short.
    Sooo she would have to tell a total stranger intimate thoughts and feelings she has? Why?

  8. #48
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Courtship is based on Christian beliefs and attitudes gleaned from the Bible.
    It's come back into style in Christian circles in the last 15 years.
    Mostly it's intention is to preserve the sexual and emotional purity of the couple.
    It sort of hearkens back to old-fashioned courting.

  9. #49
    Senior Member ceecee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTJMom View Post
    Courtship is based on Christian beliefs and attitudes gleaned from the Bible.
    It's come back into style in Christian circles in the last 15 years.
    Mostly it's intention is to preserve the sexual and emotional purity of the couple.
    It sort of hearkens back to old-fashioned courting.
    Well..it sounds fairly ridiculous. They can't even talk to each other.

  10. #50
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTJMom View Post
    Courtship is based on Christian beliefs and attitudes gleaned from the Bible.
    It's come back into style in Christian circles in the last 15 years.
    Mostly it's intention is to preserve the sexual and emotional purity of the couple.
    It sort of hearkens back to old-fashioned courting.
    Lets be candid with ourselves. Its only an archaic ritual, those who practice such rituals do not understand what it is about nor have the ambition to. And we need to let up on this thread, its got to be giving Owl an Fe overload by now, not surprising he has not been back for a while.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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