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  1. #31
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    What do you WANT to do? If you stopped thinking about it and just responded?

    I think sometimes INTPs make this a lot harder than it needs to be.
    Because everything has to be "rational."

    Just shut off your brain a sec and imagine your response to her if you were on autopilot.



    I'd eat it up... if I was already interested in the guy.
    If I was indifferent to the guy, I'd find it curious if it was good poetry, and perhaps endearing.
    If I didn't like the guy, I'd find it annoying.

    But you've already noted that she likes you.

    Again, don't rationalize it. It can be subtle, small stuff, even just nudging her foot with your foot. Just little signals that break the space between you.

    Or you could do the larger stuff like poetry, or taking her places, or asking her out on a walk (nature walk, museum, anything where you talk one on one and she has all your attention and you're sharing who you are with her).



    Yup, I think the INTP is thinking too much.
    Jennifer, the need for logical order, or for things to be rational is a genuine INTP need in a relationship. Likely even the primary need. If this is not met, the INTP will almost certainly be uncomfortable, why would you want to be in such a relationship.

    Bottom line is, things need to make sense. There are a lot of things you can compromise, but this is not one of them.

    Instead of forcing the INTP to foresake the quest for logical order, the other person must be required to be reasonable. This is by no means an 'unreasonable' demand, certainly would be non-sense to call an exhortation for reasonableness in itself unreasonable.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Jennifer, the need for logical order, or for things to be rational is a genuine INTP need in a relationship. Likely even the primary need. If this is not met, the INTP will almost certainly be uncomfortable, why would you want to be in such a relationship.

    Bottom line is, things need to make sense. There are a lot of things you can compromise, but this is not one of them.
    Acceptance of the irrational is almost imperative. So, I disagree.

  3. #33
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Jennifer, the need for logical order, or for things to be rational is a genuine INTP need in a relationship. Likely even the primary need. If this is not met, the INTP will almost certainly be uncomfortable, why would you want to be in such a relationship.

    Bottom line is, things need to make sense. There are a lot of things you can compromise, but this is not one of them.
    Umm... okay, let's go back to "practical experience here."
    How many long-term relationships have you had?
    Has your approach WORKED for you?

    Regardless of your intellectual rationalizations (which I understand why you're making and yes, there's a grain of truth there), maybe it's something you need to grow beyond.

    You don't seem to understand that, while each type does have inherent needs, the path of maturity involves actually going BEYOND them.

    Relationships are NOT a matter of conforming to type (as you still seem to believe), it's a matter of learning to transcend it.

    Instead of forcing the INTP to foresake the quest for logical order, the other person must be required to be reasonable. This is by no means an 'unreasonable' demand, certainly would be non-sense to call an exhortation for reasonableness in itself unreasonable.
    Um... see above.

    Said generally (not particularly directed at you): Maybe the INTP needs to grow up and learn some flexibility and ability to Ne (and whatever else) rather than Ti'ing things all the time.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  4. #34
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    Acceptance of the irrational is almost imperative. So, I disagree.
    There are people in this world who find it easy to be rational. Those who do not and still seek a relationship with an INTP must either learn to be reasonable, or depart.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Umm... okay, let's go back to "practical experience here."
    How many long-term relationships have you had?
    Has your approach WORKED for you?.
    I have had several. I am very happy with my decision to push for clarity.

    Regardless of your intellectual rationalizations (which I understand why you're making and yes, there's a grain of truth there), maybe it's something you need to grow beyond.

    You don't seem to understand that, while each type does have inherent needs, the path of maturity involves actually going BEYOND them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Relationships are NOT a matter of conforming to type (as you still seem to believe), it's a matter of learning to transcend it..
    Type merely outlines what tendency of mind is most comfortable for us naturally. If we develop all of our functions well, we would be comfortable with them all. However, naturally, we would always be more comfortable with one than the other because we are naturally in closer affinity with one than the other. You can only transcend your type to a certain degree, if you go too far, you're just being untrue to yourself. After you have developed all of your functions, you merely have a longer leash, but it is far from the case that you completely have transcended your type, or you're EQUALLY comfortable with all functions.







    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Said generally (not particularly directed at you): Maybe the INTP needs to grow up and learn some flexibility and ability to Ne rather than Ti'ing things all the time.
    Being flexible is a good quality to have, but let me put it to you quite simply, why on Earth do you want to compromise your dearest principles? You obviously would be unhappy if you did that. As I mentioned earlier, many things you can compromise, but not this. If you compromise your dearest principles, you can compromise everything, which means you simply have no backbone.

    It is often said in INTP profiles, generally flexible and easy going, yet become very rigid when their principles are violated. This is apt as both a description of how INTPs, and how they ought to be. Introverted Thinking has a very narrow focus. In order for it to function soundly, it needs to hold on to only a few maxims, almost all others it can let go off. Bottom line is, you're simply being untrue to yourself if you're allowing for your most important maxim to be violated. Whats the good of that?

    But the bottom line is, nevermind what your type is, if you have principles which are very important to you, you ought to stand by them. In this case it is perhaps the need for logical order.

    But yes, Jennifer, for you I highly recommend that you keep on doing what you suggested. What good is having principles and having some kind of reasonableness and structure to your life anyways, especially that there are plenty of awesome people to get to know! Who knows what you will be missing out on if you sit in your petty little shell contemplating what does and what doesnt make sense to you! Life is too short to waste in mere dwelling aint it!? Who cares who you are or what you think, or whether you be bothered with such mind-boggling ideas as 'having a backbone' just go out and LIVE! Dont look back! Don't think about it! Mature up! Be flexible, just trust the FEEL!
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  5. #35
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    I went and looked it up for you. It's called a "DTR."

    "Define The Relationship" talk, or so says boundless.org, a conservative Christian online magazine.

    Basically, it's an open discussion of perspectives and all that jazz. According to the site, males assert their feelings openly and take the vulnerability risk, females respond to the males taking the risk as they're not supposed to be the pursuers, and then if it's necessary the male then goes and asks permission from her dad to date.

    If your church is all about forthcoming and conservative biblical dating, I don't see how this would go against asking the pastor first. Remember: you're not asking her out, you're asserting your feelings and desire to pursue her, and she only responds, you're still the male taking leadership and pursuing and risking.

    Then you'll have your answer and still not be going against anything in your church. (i.e. if she wants more time before a real relationship, or whatever, you'll know).

    Communication. Sometimes, the answer is easy.
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
    C.S. Lewis

  6. #36
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    There are people in this world who find it easy to be rational. Those who do not and still seek a relationship with an INTP must either learn to be reasonable, or depart.
    I am into the depart some people thing, where shall we build our empire ?
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    There are people in this world who find it easy to be rational. Those who do not and still seek a relationship with an INTP must either learn to be reasonable, or depart.
    Some INTPs. *zen*

  8. #38
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    I have had several. I am very happy with my decision to push for clarity.
    Um... you're not beyond, what, 25 max, right?

    You also, in the 1-2 years I've known you, don't seem to have been the most astute in terms of what relationships need to endure and thrive.

    My intuition is that you've been happy with yourself but your partners have not been very happy at all. Most of the site you frequent hasn't been happy with your relational sense either.

    Again, that's not something meant to be an attack, I'm clarifying what I've seen since it feels to me like you're laying claim to the notion that your approach has been highly productive relationally... where I have not observed that.

    Type merely outlines what tendency of mind is most comfortable for us naturally. If we develop all of our functions well, we would be comfortable with them all. However, naturally, we would always be more comfortable with one than the other because we are naturally in closer affinity with one than the other. You can only transcend your type to a certain degree, if you go too far, you're just being untrue to yourself. After you have developed all of your functions, you merely have a longer leash, but it is far from the case that you completely have transcended your type, or you're EQUALLY comfortable with all functions.
    I agree with that.
    But I don't feel like it has much to do with my point / context of what we were discussing.

    Being flexible is a good quality to have, but let me put it to you quite simply, why on Earth do you want to compromise your dearest principles? You obviously would be unhappy if you did that. As I mentioned earlier, many things you can compromise, but not this. If you compromise your dearest principles, you can compromise everything, which means you simply have no backbone.
    I'm not compromising my dearest principles, nor am I suggesting that someone should.

    Your idea of compromise seems very extreme in how you describe it. There's a whole element of learning how to relate to human beings that, at this time in your life, you seem to identify with "compromise" and so you refuse to do it.

    I can't tell you that one day you might change your mind, but I do know that people don't change as long as they equate change = compromise. Only when change is viewed as a positive are people able to change and widen.

    It is often said in INTP profiles, generally flexible and easy going, yet become very rigid when their principles are violated. This is apt as both a description of how INTPs, and how they ought to be. Introverted Thinking has a very narrow focus. In order for it to function soundly, it needs to hold on to only a few maxims, almost all others it can let go off. Bottom line is, you're simply being untrue to yourself if you're allowing for your most important maxim to be violated. Whats the good of that?
    I don't think we're discussing that here.

    But the bottom line is, nevermind what your type is, if you have principles which are very important to you, you ought to stand by them. In this case it is perhaps the need for logical order.
    Which is why I made allowance for Owl's religious beliefs to persist.
    Because I personally don't know why Owl has chosen to pursue his particular religious beliefs.
    Until I know those reasons, it's not my business to tell him how he might or might not be violating his INTP nature in pursuing them, although I might have particular intuitions about it.

    I'm impressed that you have a list of talking points you cling to regardless of the actual context of the discussion at hand.

    But yes, Jennifer, for you I highly recommend that you keep on doing what you suggested.
    Thank you, dear Bluewing. You are such a kind and considerate friend.

    What good is having principles and having some kind of reasonableness and structure to your life anyways, especially that there are plenty of awesome people to get to know!
    True. Principles and intelligence is just a sham and will only lead you astray, BlueWing! You need to be a social butterfly and get out there more and abandon everything that makes you you, if you wish to be whole! I cannot believe your persist in your intellectual integrity while there is so much to be gained by losing your sense of self and being absorbed into another! Praytell, I hope that you soon mend your preposterous intellectualism and expand your social circles!

    Who knows what you will be missing out on if you sit in your petty little shell contemplating what does and what doesnt make sense to you!
    I know! It's about time you finally admitted this and came around!
    (Wow, you called me pretty. *swoon* Oh, BlueWing, say it again! Please, honeybun!)

    Life is too short to waste in mere dwelling aint it!? Who cares who you are or what you think, or whether you be bothered with such mind-boggling ideas as 'having a backbone' just go out and LIVE! Dont look back! Don't think about it! Mature up! Be flexible, just trust the FEEL!
    I don't know what makes me smile more -- your ability to argue a point without actually dealing with the argument that was made, your ability to misrepresent another person's argument, or your ability to drop into ridiculous sarcasm that again fails to make the point you were trying to make.

    Or maybe it's just one large game, since apparently the OP was too boring to provide tangible answers for and this game is much more fun, yes?

    In any case, let's get back to Owl's topic, shall we? Thanks.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  9. #39
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Lets summarize all that has happened.

    1)Owl asks how to deal with a person who is being unclear in communication.
    2)Jennifer presumes that Owl has a problem with this person being unclear because he insists on all things with regard to his situation being rational. Jennifer suggests that Owl stops insisting that all things must be rational.
    3)BlueWing argues that Owl is better off continuing to insist that things be as rational as possible. The reasoning for this is because as an INTP, his unconscious tendency of Thinking has had a heavy impact on the development of his personality. In other words, it plays a big role in his psyche. Because of this, the principle concerning clarity and logical consistency are very important to him.
    4)To support the advice BlueWing gave, he argues that in order for us to have a firm sense of self we need to be true to our most important principles. Because the need for things to be rational inheres within Owl's highly valued principles, he should not allow for this to be contravened, therefore he ought to continue to insist on having things as rational as possible in his life.


    Important points to note.

    1)In response to my claim that Owl should insist on things being clear and rational you say, it is important to comrpomise.

    2)I say that some thing, including the need to have things clear and rational in this case is one of them.

    3) You make a seemingly irrelevant utterance to this discussion with regard to how relationships should not be about being true to your natural type, but transcending it. Not sure if I really understand what this means, or how it is relevant to our discussion, but I shall attempt to decipher this claim as faithfully to what you seem to have in mind as possible.

    Earlier you have argued that it is important to comrpomise. To strengthen this claim, you maintain that we need not be true to the functions we are in warmest natural affinity with. Instead we should get comfortable with all functions, that way we can get along better with more people.

    I respond to you that even when we get comfortable with our lower functions, inevitably, we are more loyal to the functions we are in closest natural affinity with. For this reason, our principles is very closely connected to our type. (For example, if you are a dom Intuitive, inevitably imagination will be important to you, you will be well advised to concoct a principle to defned this value of yours. In the same vein, if you're a dom Thinking type, logical order will be equally as important to you, therefore you ought to also concoct an ethical maxim to guard this personal value of yours). Thus, doing as you recommended, or 'transcending type' is undesirable because this leads to a direct contravention of your closest principles.

    On these grounds, I argue that this remark of mine was relevant to our discussion.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Um... you're not beyond, what, 25 max, right?

    You also, in the 1-2 years I've known you, don't seem to have been the most astute in terms of what relationships need to endure and thrive.

    My intuition is that you've been happy with yourself but your partners have not been very happy at all. Most of the site you frequent hasn't been happy with your relational sense either.

    Again, that's not something meant to be an attack, I'm clarifying what I've seen since it feels to me like you're laying claim to the notion that your approach has been highly productive relationally... where I have not observed that..

    This is all very interesting but not relevant. We look only at the information provided by the author to see if its plausible or not.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  10. #40
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    I'm trying to figure out if the woman is supposed to just come right out and say 'Owl, I like you and I think you are attractive. I believe I'd like to marry you and have your babies. Please talk to the pastor and buy me a ring. Now kiss me you fool!!' or what.

    INTP men sometimes really like to be passive and really like to get all the data so they can know for sure they aren't going to fail and look stupid. This is not really a very effective way to go about things.

    When you are passive and you expect the other person to take all the initiative, what you are likely to end up with is a kind of a default relationship with a controlling person because those are the kinds of women who don't mind taking all the initiative. Later, the INTP man realizes that he is in a relationship with a controlling person, feels trapped and is repeatedly being manipulated and having his autonomy violated.

    Then you end up with a guy that resents his wife, but either loves his kids too much to leave or can't quite bring himself to actively bring closure to the relationship by ending it. He, instead, passive-aggressively (and maybe unconsciously) tries to make the relationship bad enough that the woman will finally get enough of it and leave him because he still refuses to take the initiative.

    I don't call being passive and refusing to take risks or initiative having a backbone. I call it cowardice. The woman here is under some pretty heavy constraints. She is required to be passive while Owl, if he is interested in pursuing the relationship is required to take the initiative.

    Yes, he can speak with her and try to get a better idea about her intentions, but ultimately, he's going to have to take a risk and it's going to be scary and he's not going to feel comfortable doing it. It might turn out the girl wasn't serious at all or it might turn out she wants to marry him the minute they get the legal and religious go-ahead and jump his bones until the cows come home, but he's probably not going to know for sure until he's put his balls on the table.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
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