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  1. #21
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by digesthisickness View Post
    seriously. read everything he's posted in this thread with that in mind. doesn't it sound like that?
    Minus the religious stuff, yes.

    I just know that in some circles the courtship, etc stuff is pretty standard procedure and can take place long after a person is of age.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  2. #22
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    I agree. The ages of the 2 persons in question matters.
    Not only that, but I'm not clear on whether the girl understands the rules of courtship since she is a new convert.



    What Jennifer asked is also relevant... does she touch everyone?

  3. #23
    The Destroyer Colors's Avatar
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    Man up. Obviously under your religious rules, the power balance is uneven- and under these rules she's done all that she can to "court" you given her gender. It's your move. So either date her or don't date her.

    Doing neither/ waiting just makes you a jackass.

  4. #24
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Owl View Post
    And neither of us has been properly vetted to ensure that we're ready for the responsibilities that come with marriage.
    If you're asking strangers and not her, you're not ready.
    Vets won't help.

    Quote Originally Posted by INTJMom View Post

    Do you know what her type might be?
    Thanks, Mom - is noone else offended that he gets the benefit of type-related understanding but she doesn't?

    I mean SHIT!

    ALL WOMEN ARE NOT THE SAME.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  5. #25
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluemonday View Post
    ...
    ALL WOMEN ARE NOT THE SAME.
    That's what I was thinking.
    An ENFP is entirely different from an ISTJ and the identical behavior coming from either one would probably mean something different.

  6. #26
    Senior Member ThatsWhatHeSaid's Avatar
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    You and her have urges that are breaking through whatever barrier is there by convention. The barrier is unnatural, so it runs into conflict with your (plural) feelings. She SAYS she can't date and wants to be friends, but she FEELS like she wants to display affection. The foot thing and the ticket thing aren't accidental.

    I don't really get why you started this thread. If it's to know that she's interested, it seems like she is. You can ask her, but that might fuck things up. If you're asking what to DO, then it seems like you've already decided that you want to be friends. If you're looking for permission to kiss her, or rather, some reassurance that she won't reject you, it's impossible to give. First kisses involve some risk, but it looks like she's into you.

    If you want to test it out, give her some light touches back. If you're crossing the street, put your arm behind her back (supporting her) or find some reason to touch her hand (without looking like a total awkward creep). The fun part about flirting is that it's confusing and unclear what your intentions are. Seems like she knows how to do it pretty well.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Owl View Post

    What am I supposed to do?
    Im going with a quote from Jack Flak on this one

    I usually throw one arm around the neck, one around the crotch area, and whisper "What do you think about that?" into her ear.

  8. #28
    desert pelican Owl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    She already asked you out?

    USELESS THREAD.
    I've learned a good bit already. I'm utterly naive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firelie View Post
    Your pastor seems rather old fashioned.If someone wrote me poetry, I'd laugh at him.

    Why don't you just talk to her more? Girls like attention as long as you don't overdo it and act clingy/stalkerish. I suppose your could reciprocate the contact, but don't let it get out of hand... since there are religious beliefs involved and all.
    You might laugh, but would you find it endearing?

    I'll definitely talk to her more, but how open can I be with her without freaking her out?

    Quote Originally Posted by digesthisickness View Post
    how old is this girl?

    the whole thing sounds as if she's underage, and you have to wait for her to be legal.
    Well, my first wife was 16, and she's said that 15 year olds are more than ready to be suitable helpmeets.



    j/k... you're quite the pessimist, aren't you?

    She's just shy of 21. (I just turned 26 last month--5 years plus change in age difference--significant gap, but not insurmountable.)

    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I'm guessing if she's asked you out and is pursuing you that, if she is serious about her beliefs, she means it for realz and wants to be courted.

    If she's a convert, she's probably serious about her beliefs, right? Because she went out of her way to adopt them. I mean, taken in context she's coming on pretty strong so I'd take it seriously.

    Ask her if she'd like you to speak to the pastor about the possibility of courting her.

    Edit: Oh crap, yeah. If she's underage back off.
    I told her early on about how the pastor needs to be informed if we want to become more than friends. In light of what happened the other night, I'd like to bring this up again; this is why it's so important for me to know if her actions were merely friendly. If I read more into her actions than is there, I could make a real fool of myself.

    Quote Originally Posted by INTJMom View Post
    It's hard to tell for sure because we weren't there,
    but it sounds as though she put herself near you on purpose.
    There are some women who are aggressive and I won't get into that.

    If you both have agreed that you can't court right now, then that is a boundary that can create a sense of security in a girl's mind. It's possible that she just wants to be near you and be with you, while expecting you to respect the boundary. She could even be testing you to see how much you respect her based on how willing you are to continue to respect the boundary. I can't imagine how you can go wrong erring on the side of caution. If she turns out to be offended that you do not return her advances and escalate the relationship, then perhaps she is the type of woman who you are better off rid of, based on what you have described as the standards of your faith - which by the way, I find highly commendable.

    You will probably be able to tell better the next time you see her.
    If she touches you again, it's probably not coincidence.

    Do you know what her type might be?
    Thanks! Erring on the side of caution is probably the best way to go, but the romantic idealist in me wants everything to be perfect.

    I've no idea what she'd type as. Probably an extrovert... and an F... but maybe I've not yet seen her primary, and I'm only interacting with an extroverted auxiliary F? I'd think N over S too... I'd guess ENFJ or INFJ.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    Either way, it doesn't matter. Thread should be called "I'm pissed off b/c I have to wait to date this girl."
    frustrated.

    Quote Originally Posted by INTJMom View Post
    I agree. The ages of the 2 persons in question matters.
    Not only that, but I'm not clear on whether the girl understands the rules of courtship since she is a new convert.

    What Jennifer asked is also relevant... does she touch everyone?
    I've the same concerns. It seems she knows less than I about the rules of courtship, and I know next to nothing; and 21 year olds are not known for their temperance...

    She's not shy when it comes to touching others, (much less so than I, at least), but she doesn't touch everyone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Colors View Post
    Man up. Obviously under your religious rules, the power balance is uneven- and under these rules she's done all that she can to "court" you given her gender. It's your move. So either date her or don't date her.

    Doing neither/ waiting just makes you a jackass.
    The thing is, she'd have to meet with the pastor too, and I'm not sure she wants to do that yet--she's just getting to know him. Letting people into these vulnerable areas and letting them poke around isn't easy, especially when the purpose is to expose where you come short.

    Quote Originally Posted by bluemonday View Post
    If you're asking strangers and not her, you're not ready.
    Vets won't help.

    Thanks, Mom - is noone else offended that he gets the benefit of type-related understanding but she doesn't?

    I mean SHIT!

    ALL WOMEN ARE NOT THE SAME.
    ?

    y'all aren't strangers. (Well, you are, but not everyone here is. Even so, you're insight is welcome too.)

    I'm an MBTI dilettante. I couldn't make positive use of what I know if I tried.

    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsWhatHeSaid View Post
    You and her have urges that are breaking through whatever barrier is there by convention. The barrier is unnatural, so it runs into conflict with your (plural) feelings. She SAYS she can't date and wants to be friends, but she FEELS like she wants to display affection. The foot thing and the ticket thing aren't accidental.

    I don't really get why you started this thread. If it's to know that she's interested, it seems like she is. You can ask her, but that might fuck things up. If you're asking what to DO, then it seems like you've already decided that you want to be friends. If you're looking for permission to kiss her, or rather, some reassurance that she won't reject you, it's impossible to give. First kisses involve some risk, but it looks like she's into you.

    If you want to test it out, give her some light touches back. If you're crossing the street, put your arm behind her back (supporting her) or find some reason to touch her hand (without looking like a total awkward creep). The fun part about flirting is that it's confusing and unclear what your intentions are. Seems like she knows how to do it pretty well.
    "I don't really get why you started this thread... You can ask her, but that might fuck things up."

    I'd very much like to not fuck things up. I have zero experience in this area, and there are few people I can turn to for advice. However, there are plenty of people here who've made people watching a hobby and seem quite good at discerning where others are spiritually--e.g., you.

    The more interpretations I can get from varying points of view, the better equipped I'll be to decide what to do.

  9. #29
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Give her an ultimatum.

    Tell her the following,

    You either make sure you know what you want communicate what you want in unequivocal terms, or I end communication. In short, cut the shit.

    You can afford to loose her. You can do just fine on your own, most normal INTPs (especially with scholarly interests) can. And if you choose to have a partner, almost certainly you will have options of other people who are much easier to have a relationship with because they know what they want better and are able to communicate clearly, they also likely will have many of the attractive qualities she has. This is more likely to be the case for you than for an average INTP as you inhabit a scholarly environment.














    And as a friend, not as a philosopher, I highly recommend you reconsider your commitment to your faith. Your life would be much easier without it, and you will do just fine without the guidance it currently provides you with as you can think for yourself just fine.


    You wonder what she may be thinking. A rational person has a clear-cut reason to do the things he does. Yet your typical F, or an irrational person does not. For example, the former may say, I am doing X because of Y. Yet when an irrational person can easily be satisfied with doing X and not X at the same time. Or, X,Y,Z and H simultaneously whilst having acknowledged that at this point only one can be performed.


    In other words, it is a complete mess. This is hard for an average INTP to believe because our dominant function is Introverted Thinking. This faculty is most adept at bringing logical order to the situations we encounter. Only through establishment of logical order can one have clear reasons to support their actions. One who lacks logical order will be quite simply a mess, which is what most people are, especially Fs.

    For these reasons, I recommend that you do not look for the true compelling causes of her actions, as you will never find them as they are fleeting impulses. Those impulses are not connected to the observations of the external world or what a reasonable person may infer from those observations, but are an outcome of their irrational analysis of the external world. Because they do not conform to objective laws of reasoning or common-sense, and you cannot observe their internal mindset (as it is not externally observable), it will be close to impossible for you to have the information necessary to figure out what they are thinking.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  10. #30
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Owl View Post
    ...How would you go about this? Would you reciprocate the physical contact, or would you call her tell her what's on your mind (in person/on the phone/email?). I don't know how to flirt at all...
    What do you WANT to do? If you stopped thinking about it and just responded?

    I think sometimes INTPs make this a lot harder than it needs to be.
    Because everything has to be "rational."

    Just shut off your brain a sec and imagine your response to her if you were on autopilot.

    My pastor seems to be a big fan of writing girls poetry... would that be coming on too strong?
    I'd eat it up... if I was already interested in the guy.
    If I was indifferent to the guy, I'd find it curious if it was good poetry, and perhaps endearing.
    If I didn't like the guy, I'd find it annoying.

    But you've already noted that she likes you.

    Again, don't rationalize it. It can be subtle, small stuff, even just nudging her foot with your foot. Just little signals that break the space between you.

    Or you could do the larger stuff like poetry, or taking her places, or asking her out on a walk (nature walk, museum, anything where you talk one on one and she has all your attention and you're sharing who you are with her).

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    She already asked you out?
    Yup, I think the INTP is thinking too much.

    * * * * *

    (Note: As far as the faith thing goes, yes, it's making things complicated for you and personally I don't understand why you've made the particular commitment to [this nebulous faith] as you have, I'll be honest about that, because it doesn't seem to match up well with your intellectual approach or your inherent intuition, it seems very Te/Fe and imposing on the connections you instinctively WANT to make, that are natural for you.

    However, that being said, I respect your choice to adhere to your belief, especially because I DON'T know the specifics of why you've committed to these beliefs but assume based on how articulate and thoughtful you are that you must have your reasons. Regardless of my feelings, it's clearly obvious you are very serious about the faith restraints here, and so I take them seriously and am giving you advice that works within those restraints as you asked.)
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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