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  1. #41
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucifer View Post
    Please go back and read my last post, the part about counsellors. This above statement proves my point exactly. Logic is defined as pure reason and facts and is universal. The logic you deal with is more of a persnal one. Dealing with human behaviour (which is not always logical) and is the use of feeling and logic, NF, instead of logic and reason, NT.
    Why couldn't you think of human behavior in terms of probabilities, frameworks, problem solving, etc.?

    "Pure reason" <-- what does this even mean? A bunch of if/then statements? I don't see why you couldn't apply that to human behavior. It'd be pretty complex, sure, but it's not like humans are physically made up of anything different than any other object.

    Yes, it's true that I focus some of my logical analyses on people (making inferences about what their assumptions are, etc.) But so do NTs. I probably focus on people more than most NTs, but definitely not all of them.

    I excel more at math, computer science, physics, etc. than in other subjects in school. I have a math mind. (= a logical mind?)

    I've also been typed as INTP multiple times.

    My point is essentially that MBTI is quite a limited system, and people should be careful generalizing type characteristics.

  2. #42
    Senior Member Lucifer's Avatar
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    Alright I didn't want to do this but here we go.

    Logic: a system of reasoning
    Reason: the capacity for rational thought or inference or discrimination
    Feeling: the preference for using valuing during the decision making process

    Logic is a system of reasoning not reasoning itself. NT's combine logic and reason for a very impersonnal assessment of how things including people work. And yes Nt's do have the ability to use feeling to read people but are much more comfortable breaking things down into simple forms.

    The NF uses logic in a similar but different process and combines feeling with it for a more personnal approach. Such as how you asked if NT could substitute people in as logic, which might be natural for you, using feeling to find, what you would call a more exact answer a balance so to speak. We would call it becoming to personnal. You see blue and yellow, so to get a balanced and fair ansswer you come up with green. Where an NT cannot do that.

    Do not pull out the "ive typed as INTP" deal dissonance. For Iif thats what you are you would not have refuted my first statement, and now you are using it as a defence. If you are unsure, take the human metrics test and sit down and really think about your answers, my final one took me about an hour.
    And I describe myself as ENTJ.

    Finally, yes I do understand it is not concrete because simply being labelled could caue a person to imitate another or rebel against he label. But it is a reasonable approach to the temperments of the human mind.
    This world is mine - in time.

  3. #43
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucifer View Post
    Alright I didn't want to do this but here we go.

    Logic: a system of reasoning
    Reason: the capacity for rational thought or inference or discrimination
    Feeling: the preference for using valuing during the decision making process

    Logic is a system of reasoning not reasoning itself. NT's combine logic and reason for a very impersonnal assessment of how things including people work. And yes Nt's do have the ability to use feeling to read people but are much more comfortable breaking things down into simple forms.

    The NF uses logic in a similar but different process and combines feeling with it for a more personnal approach. Such as how you asked if NT could substitute people in as logic, which might be natural for you, using feeling to find, what you would call a more exact answer a balance so to speak. We would call it becoming to personnal. You see blue and yellow, so to get a balanced and fair ansswer you come up with green. Where an NT cannot do that.
    NTs can use Feeling just as well as I can use Thinking. They can achieve balance just as easily.

    Although, since you're an ETJ, you have inferior Feeling. Your Thinking and Feeling are as separated as possible in the system (in 1st and 4th position). My Feeling is in 2nd position, and my Thinking is in 3rd, which means it's probably easier for me to find a balance.

    The grey area between NFs and NTs is more of an issue when talking about INJs and ENPs (since they have 2nd and 3rd position judgment, as opposed to 1st and 4th in ENJs and ITPs).

    Do not pull out the "ive typed as INTP" deal dissonance. For Iif thats what you are you would not have refuted my first statement, and now you are using it as a defence.
    My point in bringing that up was that I exhibit traits that would be called NT traits -- I'm not using it as defense, I'm using it to show the bounds of the MBTI system.

    If you are unsure, take the human metrics test and sit down and really think about your answers, my final one took me about an hour.
    And I describe myself as ENTJ.
    I have, and I test as INTP. I'm not an INTP, though -- I just happen to be a very T F. And a very P J. The tests can't accurately discern types for balanced people.

    Finally, yes I do understand it is not concrete because simply being labelled could caue a person to imitate another or rebel against he label. But it is a reasonable approach to the temperments of the human mind.
    I see what you're saying. NTs are generally better than NFs at logic. I agree with that statement.

    Here's what I have a problem with:

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucifer View Post
    They are merely people, they cannot be more then that. NT's can be truth therefore it can be challenging to communicate with people when they do not understand truth.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucifer View Post
    Outside of NT there is no logic other then that of the NF which is merely chaos and in itself is logical. The other two temperments are just wannabes of NT or NF or are in limbo.
    I don't think the condescending attitude makes much sense. I've yet to be "stumped" by an NT's logic ever in my life.

  4. #44
    Senior Member Lucifer's Avatar
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    They are my views on the system. the MBTI made two extremes, the rationals and the idealists, and then gave them two children. althought it is balanced, like we have talked about it is still not perfect and sinc it was created by people it shouldn't be.

    Yes I am very condescending to the few things that appear to me to be of little importance, which is Artisans and Guardians, who are like the canvas idealists and rationals paint on.
    This world is mine - in time.

  5. #45
    now! in shell form INA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YourLocalJesus View Post
    How I do view:
    NTs vs. NFs: Pretty much OK, I just hate trying to argue with them, because generally they suck at logic. They can't follow a straight line, they always (more or less) mix up emotions and fact.

    NTs vs. SPs: Usually ok, though the Feelers are usually a bit annoying.

    NTs vs. SJs: Can only put up with ISTJ's. They complete me, and usually have a form of logic that I respect. The rest of the SJ's annoy me, and I would rather die than have one in a position over me. I loathe law-abiding traditional twits.
    I agree with a lot of this.
    An NT - NF argument:

    NF: 2+2 = 4. It follows that you need to adopt my fuzzy feelings about that the transcendence of unicorns.
    NT (exasperated): But that has NOTHING to do with it.
    NF (after sighing): OMGWTF! YOU ARE AN UNHEALTHY xNTx!
    NT (muttering): Feelers . . .

    I actually like the more laidback SJs *half* the time.
    SPs - I have a weird thing where I'm drawn to the ISPs - in a weird protective way, but I feel that they think I am evil or there's some other kind of way we don't get each other.
    hoarding time and space
    A single event can awaken within us a stranger totally unknown to us. To live is to be slowly born.
    — Antoine de Saint-Exupery

  6. #46
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    The NT Private Forum appears to have experienced an ERROR between idea and execution... New Topic: "Should NT Private Forums be private?"

  7. #47
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    ...
    How do you view:
    NTs vs. NFs?
    I like NFs for the most part because the ones I know are nice, intelligent, kind-hearted. Personally, I prefer a conversation with an N because we are likely going to discuss something not skin-deep. My INFP sister and I both agree that having a conversation with an S can be a shallow experience.

    NTs vs. SPs?
    I am a very serious person and relate to SPs the least. What's weird though is I was attracted to an SP and we've been married for 26 years. We have an SP son and I had such a hard time learning to understand and accept that type, especially trying to see the positive qualities of that type, mostly because it was so opposite of me and what I believed people are supposed to believe and the way we're supposed to behave. As I said, I had to learn to appreciate him, but now that I have, he is very dear to me. If it wasn't for my SP son, I would hardly ever have any excitement in my life. ("Mom, can I ride my bike off the roof?")

    NTs vs. SJs?
    I respect SJs. I admire their discipline. I hate the hoops they make me jump through. I frequently wish I could be more like them.

    You didn't ask about NTs, but I'd like to address that:
    INTP - the type I am most likely to distrust.
    ENTP - the type I most easily adore.
    INTJ - the type I feel most compassion for, since I know how hard it is to be an INTJ.
    ENTJ - the type that feels most like a steamroller, but who I also admire.

  8. #48
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    NT vs NF.
    Love them to bits. Mostly uncomplicated people with certainty behind their principles (I realise I'm crossing types here but I care not about the standard nomenclature). I especially love ENFJs.. even when they're on a mission and listening to none but themselves. INFPs can be a pain if they get upset and ENFPs do my sweed when they're upset but when on an even keel I like all NF types without exception. Now loving all NFs themselves... well that's a different kettle of fish.

    I think the only type of NF that causes me problems is INFJs and that's only because usually I can't get to the bit behind the thinking for all the walls, deep moats and everything else. I hate talking to facades!

    NT vs SP.
    These types are great. Free thinkers unworried by how things interconnect, at least from my perspective. Of course they can also be a pain especially with the tendancy to repeat the same description instead of answering a question like "what on earth are you on about?"

    NT vs SJ.
    Well the FSJs I have little problem with.. once I understand how their values play out. After that it's a simple matter of conforming and not over stepping the boundaries. They can be tiring though. ISTJs I also enjoy the company of.. but possibly only because I only know one and he's smart enough to wonder why I disagree... even if he has sworn off discussing things with me in the past because I kept persuading him.

    ESTJs are both my bane and my current employers. I basically absorb their criticisms and try to get along. It's not always possible but I find I do get respect for standing my ground even if they can't see why it's worthwhile to do so. I think proving them wrong also does me some good.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  9. #49
    veteran attention whore Jeffster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucifer View Post
    Yes I am very condescending to the few things that appear to me to be of little importance, which is Artisans and Guardians, who are like the canvas idealists and rationals paint on.
    I LOVE THE WAY YOU PAINT ON ME BABY
    Jeffster Illustrates the Artisan Temperament <---- click here

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  10. #50
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    HAHAHA

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