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  1. #41
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucifer View Post
    I used the example in mammalian species particularly homo-sapien because that was the question, asking why I believe homosexuals in our culture are wrong.

    I cannot stress enough that there is no social darwinist perspective here, although the differences are minimal, it is also key. I am not stating that things that survive are for sure superior, there are other factors that control species and that can come down to mere chance. I am merely expressing the fact that everthing on this planet strives TO survive.

    Once more I never said anything was superior to reptiles or vice versa, in which case fish would be a shining example of evolution over time.

    An example of genetic in lamens terms would something your born with, born a homosexual.
    Where as I used mental to discern such a thing as a girl being beaten to the point where she is no longer attrcted to men and then become a homosexual.

    Heterosexuality is essential in our species, for the survival of our species. If male and females are not attracted to each other then they won't procreate and henceforth humanity doesn't survive.
    Look: If evolution is what is in charge here, you have nothing to worry about.

    The homosexual genetics inevitably kill themselves off, as you have described.
    Leaving only heterosexuals.
    (That's what you want, right?)

    And if they do not kill themselves off, then there is no threat to the human race.
    Because obviously homosexuals can procreate just fine, even if they're not particularly interested in het sex.

    What's the issue?
    As far as I can tell, using just basic logic, there is none.
    You can just sit back and twiddle your thumbs or whatever and not worry about the threat of homosexuals destroying the human race.

    Now, as far as "social conditioning" for example where a female is abused by men enough that she no longer feels safe enough to make herself vulnerable in sexual relationships with males and decides instead to build a love bond with another woman, well, what's that have to do with evolution?

    Evolution is about natural selection, based on genetics.
    Not pure social conditioning.
    The woman's genes are still 'straight.'

    Again, why bring that up at all?
    It seems irrelevant to your case.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucifer View Post
    I believe they do have an overall effect that is negative, and the same does go for parents ho do not have children, especially western families that do not.
    Hmmm.
    I'm not seeing a lot of "logic" here yet.
    Just fear of Other.

    Quote Originally Posted by runvardh View Post
    Wow, we're starting to have enough ENTJs to observe their maturity levels and possible directions of maturity. I wonder if we could cram a few more in here for observation.
    Yeah, I really do think it's fascinating to see such a wide degree of speciments in one jar, I've only ever seen 2-3 ENTJs altogether on an entire forum -- and suddenly they're all showing up in this thread! Cool beans.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  2. #42
    Senior Member Lucifer's Avatar
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    Well you see it is all extremely relevent.

    I do not believe homosexuality is completely genetic or is even mainly genetic. And that is the point, thatsomething that is not part of our evolution and opposes the basic system of survival: life;procreate;death;life;procreate;death;ad infinitum.

    I don't know if you understood that I do not fear it as a genetic disposition, I fear it as a social one, that people are opposed to something such as their opposite gender, are in fact merely rebelling against life, and that does bother me.
    This world is mine - in time.

  3. #43
    Senior Member Kora's Avatar
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    There are kids that at a very early age feel attracted to the same sex. Sometimes it's a choice, but it's in its majority something gen-

    Wait. Wasn't this a thread about ENTJs?
    5w4 - Idiosyncratic/Leisurely/Dramatic
    It's the devil's way now.
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  4. #44
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucifer View Post
    I do not believe homosexuality is completely genetic or is even mainly genetic. And that is the point, thatsomething that is not part of our evolution and opposes the basic system of survival: life;procreate;death;life;procreate;death;ad infinitum.
    Everything that happens to humans is part of our evolution (in a very broad sense). Read Stuart Mill's "On Nature" for a philosophical-logical discussion on the matter. Homosexuality could simply be a positive feedback mechanism to ensue some degree of sustainability to population growth; namely, we could easily think about a society where 30 percent of the newborns were homosexuals and this society would be more easily able to achieve a steady-state of population growth (given that space in the earth is not unlimited, this is a reasonable goal).
    ENTj 7-3-8 sx/sp

  5. #45
    にゃん runvardh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Everything that happens to humans is part of our evolution (in a very broad sense). Read Stuart Mill's "On Nature" for a philosophical-logical discussion on the matter. Homosexuality could simply be a positive feedback mechanism to ensue some degree of sustainability to population growth; namely, we could easily think about a society where 30 percent of the newborns were homosexuals and this society would be more easily able to achieve a steady-state of population growth (given that space in the earth is not unlimited, this is a reasonable goal).
    That's why we need to colonize the Moon and Mars! *still wants his maritan asperagus garden*
    Dreams are best served manifest and tangible.

    INFP, 6w7, IEI

    I accept no responsibility, what so ever, for the fact that I exist; I do, however, accept full responsibility for what I do while I exist.

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  6. #46
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucifer View Post
    I believe they do have an overall effect that is negative, and the same does go for parents ho do not have children, especially western families that do not.
    Do you think that there is anything worse about a random homosexual than a heterosexual person that chooses not to have kids?

  7. #47
    Senior Member Lucifer's Avatar
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    They are both equally troubling. I believe that homosexuality is choice and not genetic. People are born with different levels of estrogen and testosterone to the point where you have the part of our species that have male and female sexual organs. These are mutants of the species and are a part of the system experimenting.

    But men who have a higher level of estrogen compared to the norm are not necessarily homosexuals, in fact I would put forth that because they are more feminine they are ostricised by their differences and then in that system they may choose to become homosexuals because they do not live up to the constant pressure of father figures and friends who judge them compared to the heterosexual stereotypical male.

    The point dissonance is that both are choice and therefore are equally detrimental and similar. Now any viewers may want to jump all over my argument, as many people feel the need to respond to posts, saying that people dont choose etc. etc., but I am not talkingtoyou, and dissonance asked my opinon and I am giving it to him.

    Especially if you are a feminist don't respond because I am growing weary of the blabber and non-sensical patterns that are your arguments.
    This world is mine - in time.

  8. #48
    Senior Member htb's Avatar
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    Apropos the thread about verbally articulating, every type has the potential to be misunderstood in mixed company. For ENTJs, the question is why and how they're misunderstood; and what action, based on an understanding of the given situation, can resolve conflicts.

    Edit: For example --


  9. #49
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Basing my responses on ENTJs as a type.. and deliberately going for the stereotype..
    Quote Originally Posted by Orsenfelt View Post
    I do have strong opinions
    You don't say. I had almost forgotten that but fortunately you scribed it in my forehead with a mallet so I remembered
    Quote Originally Posted by Orsenfelt View Post
    I will voice those opinions. However I do my best to listen to any reasoned answer, I don't think I am always right. (Well, Ok, I concede.. I am right until someone can give me a decent reason why I am not..)
    You listen? Hah! You spend five seconds waiting for them to grab you and if they don't you suffer from a neat for of narcolepsy. Micro sleeping through the boring bits.
    Quote Originally Posted by Orsenfelt View Post
    I don't suffer fools gladly
    Oh you do if you decided previously that they weren't fools.
    Quote Originally Posted by Orsenfelt View Post
    I will walk away from meaningless conversations (To me meaningless is mundane conversations where no fact is actually exchanged for quite some time, Like chatting about TV Soaps.. why? It's fiction and it's not even very good fiction at that.) However I'd never do it to a friend or someone that has 'proved' themselve to me.
    Read as "entertain me or lose me".
    Quote Originally Posted by Orsenfelt View Post
    I don't raise my voice
    Oh I quite believe you. That I am partially deaf is purely my own fault for being in the same room as your reasoned diatribe about the lack of organisation.
    Quote Originally Posted by Orsenfelt View Post
    I consider my thoughts before I speak
    As long as it's not so important that it needs saying NOW!
    Quote Originally Posted by Orsenfelt View Post
    I will argue a point.. but I think I'm respectful.
    Reads as "You're a dumbass, I'm sorry to say. I stopped listening hours ago."
    Quote Originally Posted by Orsenfelt View Post
    I listen carefully to your response, I validate, I Give my response
    Which is usually "No".
    Quote Originally Posted by Orsenfelt View Post
    I can take criticism, things don't always have to be done my way, Just give me a reason why yours is better.
    Ie, unless I'm beaten to the floor I'm not listening lah lah lah lah lah.
    Quote Originally Posted by Orsenfelt View Post
    I'm civil, I don't interrupt or laugh etc
    Speak when you're spoken to. Got it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Orsenfelt View Post
    That said, I'm not one for trivial social 'nice-ities'
    = Sod off I don't value your input at present as it is interrupting my own.
    Quote Originally Posted by Orsenfelt View Post
    I'm not a control freak, I respect your opinion, I respect that you can live your life the way you want to.. I just expect a bit of understanding when I tell you why I think you are wrong. If you can take onboard my opinion and give me a decent rebuttal.. You gain respect and and you have a place in my house any day. If you can't, You're a close minded moron?
    = I respect you as long as you fit into my paradigm. Otherwise you are just stoopid.
    Quote Originally Posted by Orsenfelt View Post
    I wouldn't say I am goal-chasing or shallow too much. I enjoy nice things, I enjoy having money in the bank, I aspire to better things, However I could do without it.. I just don't see why I should?
    Too much = all consuming?
    Quote Originally Posted by Orsenfelt View Post
    I don't set out to take over the world, I agree that if the opportunity was handed to me.. I'd have a go, Wouldn't everyone?
    = I'm coming through unless you post guards on ALL the entrances.
    Quote Originally Posted by Orsenfelt View Post
    I don't pretend to be good at everything, However I think I am good at leading, explaining and organizing. I don't see why I should have to know every detail of your business and every detail of someone else's business just to be good at getting you working together?
    = If you know what's good for you you'll just shut up and get with the program. Capisce?
    Quote Originally Posted by Orsenfelt View Post
    I care deeply about my friends, and family who have proven themselves worthy
    If you're useful then I'll speak to you...

    I should point out, before I get shot, that my father is an ENTJ and breaks most of the rules for ENTJs. The thing is that people only react to poorly developed ENTJs as ENTJs because the good one's are nothing like what people say they are.

    Sure he still decides that some people are just idiots and treats them as such but they have to earn that label through sheer hard work and stupidity and even then he's quite prepared for the idea that even a fool can have a genius idea.

    He does follow your "prove yourself" pattern but moreso from the idea that people can prove themselves worth listening to and if you manage to do so then he will listen even if it sounds like you're wrong.

    I should also point out that this man knows the MBTI inside and out and that this knowledge has improved his development ten fold.

    Developed ENTJs are caring and creative. When they plan it is a plan to encompass everyone's wants and needs and is not just some power trip. They are also often happy being in an advisers role and are much happier giving over control than their less developed bretheren.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  10. #50
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucifer View Post
    -ENTJ and INTJ have a duty to run the world because no one else can, or they can burn it to the ground
    So would it frighten you to know that the perfect adviser for an ENTJ is often an INTP? You see all your strategies and structures have a tendency to not see the problems they will encounter thinking that they can break through any resistance. Us INTPs, however, can show you where you will fail before you get there.
    (This is of course based on the idea that both persons are adequately developed otherwise all bets are off.)
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?
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