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  1. #151

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    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Mickie View Post
    This was a reply to a much earlier post by Lucifer in 2008.
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  2. #152

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    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Mickie View Post
    As I do agree with most of what you said, there are some statements I would like you to reconsider.

    You must not wish to create a world free the people that aren't like you. Even within individuals that may cost more than they are worth exists opportunity. Perhaps inside one of these people lies an incredible cancer fighting agent, or perhaps a psychiatric patient reveals the equation for warp travel because his brain was able to put all of the pieces together in a way a normal brain couldn't or never would be able to.


    Homosexuality is not the end of our species, nor is it a sign that the end is near, far away, or correlates to any point at all in reference to the end of our species. If homosexuality is not just a defect that happens from time to time, it is of little significance because the trait can not be passed on in abundance. Whether it is a dominant trait, as is Achondroplasia (Dwarfism/"Midgets"), or a recessive trait, those that express it do not reproduce. Hence, homosexuality will probably always be a part of our society, but in low abundance. Consider it population control until we find a cure for it. And to the homosexuals out there, that last statement was not saying there is something wrong with you, only that the trait you have is not consistent with evolutionary progress and must be dealt with for the greater good of the gene pool. You were born the way you were, but I doubt that you would want anyone to be subjected to the treatment or high suicide rates of homosexuals. At the very least, there should be the option of a medical cure for those who would like it.

    I do not agree with religion or how it has been used. However, it is necessary in the time we live in. For the citizens of the world who are not as enlightened as some of the rest of us, religion is the only thing stopping them from tearing this planet apart. Religion is the single best deterrent to crime (as an ENTJ you probably realized this trend long ago). The laws that we follow in most of the advanced countries of the world stem from religious laws. I would agree that the major laws are good and worth following. Religion gives us the ideas of "Right and Wrong." Right and wrong for the most part keep people from becoming criminals, not necessarily laws. A mixture religion with a proper grasp of science would be optimal for society.



    Feelings and emotions are necessary and even you have them. They probably only show up when you feel they are actually deserved (in extreme situations) in the form of sympathy or more probably anger and distrust. However, studies have been done and found that feelings and emotions are necessary to make any decision (as found by monitoring people with no emotions). Feelings and emotions should be kept to a minimum in those that express them abundantly, due to their frequent irrationality. Be grateful for the gift that your emotions don't control you.


    In conclusion:

    -The human race needs diversity to progress as fast as possible. Increased diversity drives advances in every field.

    -Because diversity is necessary to advance the human race; religion is necessary to keep the diverse community from destroying our planet. I highly doubt logical reasoning of why laws are necessary would work as well.

    -Everyone has emotions, they enable us to make decisions. Keep them to a minimum when you can. Emotional people are necessary to keep the gene pool as diverse as possible.

    -Homosexuality is not a tool that will bring about the end of humanity. Homosexuality is seen in nearly all mammalian species, our species has just taken it to another level. Without medical treatments it will continue to exist only in low abundance. It is not a terrible or catastrophic phenomenon.
    Funny - I agree with almost everything you said (almost, because I haven't spent too much time pondering the homo issue). I've almost used the same words and examples to illustrate my identical thoughts on diversity, religion (even though I'm not religious myself) and emotion.

    On emotion & decisions, however, I think I have a more nuanced theory:
    1. Let us assume every decision you make is on a continuum of 0 (no) to 1 (yes).
    2. Reason/'T' is useful to determine where on the continuum you agree with being (e.g. 0.20, 0.85 etc.), with a margin of error (lets say 0.05).
    3. Hence, its best to rely on 'T' for decisions that are everywhere, except the 0.45-0.55 range (i.e. decisions that are too close to call using reason, due to your margin of error). i.e. you can round up 0.85 to 1 or 'yes', and round down 0.2 to 0 or 'no'
    4. Hence, for tough decisions, i.e. decisions in the 0.45-0.55 range, its best to go with your gut/'F', which is the accumulated sum total of your sub-conscious, since your conscious/'T' could only go so far as your margin of error.

    In other words, first use your 'T' i.e. logic - if you cannot make a call based on reason, go with 'F' - i.e. your gut.

    -------

    Its awesome to find that other ENTJs reason as I do - its like a clone army of people that 'git r done'.
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  3. #153
    Senior Member Lucifer's Avatar
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    Iron Mickie, I thank you for your response, the count is now 2 for people who have made excellent responses to my post and about 30 that were not.
    Even though it took awhile for another one it is still excellent.
    I do not think our society needs religion, there are other substitutes for it. like the truth.
    If people could learn to take solace in the fact that there is not meaning to life and that we can't solve or learn everything, the could free their minds from their restraints.
    But it is a lot like the euphemism for it, in the Matrix Trilogy, some people are not ready, and will die trying to protect their fake world.

    I can relate to your post mango, but my margin would be just the 0.5,
    because I believe anything can be reasoned except those unforeseeable situations where only action you can take is action itself.
    This world is mine - in time.

  4. #154
    . Blank's Avatar
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    You can't really prove that there is no meaning to life. I say there is a subject and objective truth to all things.
    Ti = 19 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Te = 16[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Ne = 16[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Fi = 15 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Si = 12 [][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Ni = 12 [][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Se = 11[][][][][][][][][][][]
    Fe = 0

    -----------------
    Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly;
    Man got to sit and wonder why, why, why;
    Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land;
    Man got to tell himself he understand

  5. #155

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucifer View Post
    If people could learn to take solace in the fact that there is not meaning to life and that we can't solve or learn everything, the could free their minds from their restraints.


    You have no vision.
    Think.

  6. #156

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucifer View Post
    If people could learn to take solace in the fact that there is not meaning to life and that we can't solve or learn everything, the could free their minds from their restraints.
    But it is a lot like the euphemism for it, in the Matrix Trilogy, some people are not ready, and will die trying to protect their fake world.

    I can relate to your post mango, but my margin would be just the 0.5,
    because I believe anything can be reasoned except those unforeseeable situations where only action you can take is action itself.

    For some reason, the same nihilism seems to exist elsewhere on this forum, as well as on INTPCentral.

    I disagree.

    Cogito ergo sum - I think therefore I am. Whether or not I am in a 'Matrix' world, I still am. I make the decisions in my life - nobody controls my judgment other than me. I also know that I like to be happy. Hence, I am motivated to actions/ behaviors/ values that maximize my happiness.

    Hence the meaning of life is maximizing lasting happiness - i.e. not just spikes of joy, but a high overall level of wellbeing, that ideally increases continually through my life.

    For example, I reject drugs, drunkenness etc. because I know those do not create lasting happiness - more often than not, they are a way to escape reality. I find that a prerequisite for lasting happiness is embracing, understanding and eventually controlling reality. Avoiding reality, self-delusion, self-destruction can only reduce happiness. Building healthy, deep realtionships based on confidence and admiration increases my lasting happiness. Enjoyable work that has meaning to me also increases my lasting happiness etc. Taking any action I am not proud of reduces my lasting happiness.

    It would be the same plugged into the Matrix, as well as unplugged.

    The implication is that whether I am in a 'Matrix' world or not, the meaning of my life doesn't change - all that external reality can change is the way in which I achieve lasting happiness.

    Does anybody see what I mean?
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  7. #157
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Mickie View Post
    Homosexuality is not the end of our species, nor is it a sign that the end is near, far away, or correlates to any point at all in reference to the end of our species. If homosexuality is not just a defect that happens from time to time, it is of little significance because the trait can not be passed on in abundance. Whether it is a dominant trait, as is Achondroplasia (Dwarfism/"Midgets"), or a recessive trait, those that express it do not reproduce. Hence, homosexuality will probably always be a part of our society, but in low abundance. Consider it population control until we find a cure for it. And to the homosexuals out there, that last statement was not saying there is something wrong with you, only that the trait you have is not consistent with evolutionary progress and must be dealt with for the greater good of the gene pool. You were born the way you were, but I doubt that you would want anyone to be subjected to the treatment or high suicide rates of homosexuals. At the very least, there should be the option of a medical cure for those who would like it.
    I'm curious as to how you would defend the bolded point. What does "must be dealt with" actually mean? This actually seems to go directly against your earlier point about diversity. Should we only allow the combination of genetics and psychology to reign free if consistent with our own personal values (that homosexuality is a "problem")? Or should we allow for specialization to occur naturally? As you said before, specialization is key for our society.

    I do not agree with religion or how it has been used. However, it is necessary in the time we live in. For the citizens of the world who are not as enlightened as some of the rest of us, religion is the only thing stopping them from tearing this planet apart. Religion is the single best deterrent to crime (as an ENTJ you probably realized this trend long ago). The laws that we follow in most of the advanced countries of the world stem from religious laws. I would agree that the major laws are good and worth following.
    I think I agree with what you're trying to say, but I just wanted to point out that it's quite a slippery slope here, because religion expects blind faith, which pretty much directly opposes profit-maximization. For the economy's efficiency to peak, every member of society should constantly be doing cost/benefit analysis for each decision they make (and the government's job is to tax negative externalities and subsidize positive ones). Religion takes analysis out of the picture, which means total production is below its peak level.

    Religion gives us the ideas of "Right and Wrong." Right and wrong for the most part keep people from becoming criminals, not necessarily laws. A mixture religion with a proper grasp of science would be optimal for society.
    I strongly disagree that religion gives us the ideas of right and wrong. I think "right" and "wrong" are manifestations of social evolution -- humans are more fit if they are able to engage in trade with other humans, therefore some amount of conformity is necessary. When we get the intuition that something is "wrong", what that really means is that it negatively affects our standing in society, reducing the cost effectiveness of our trades. Something "good" just means that it positively influenced our social standing. The fact that we all have personal moral sets is just a side effect of the evolution of these mechanisms (the ones that make us avoid "bad" and pursue "good").

    Feelings and emotions are necessary and even you have them. They probably only show up when you feel they are actually deserved (in extreme situations) in the form of sympathy or more probably anger and distrust. However, studies have been done and found that feelings and emotions are necessary to make any decision (as found by monitoring people with no emotions). Feelings and emotions should be kept to a minimum in those that express them abundantly, due to their frequent irrationality. Be grateful for the gift that your emotions don't control you.
    I agree. Emotions are quite necessary for efficient functioning. The amygdala is a structure in the brain that encodes more memory for strong emotion situations than non-emotion situations. This is a good mechanism for keeping memory search efficient.


    In conclusion:

    -The human race needs diversity to progress as fast as possible. Increased diversity drives advances in every field.
    There is a limit to the above statement, though. There can't be so much diversity that people are reluctant to trade with each other (in fact, there probably already is too much now...we should probably focus on education about diversity first before actually diversifying more).

    -Because diversity is necessary to advance the human race; religion is necessary to keep the diverse community from destroying our planet. I highly doubt logical reasoning of why laws are necessary would work as well.
    I disagree. I think education is much more likely to save us from "destroying our planet". Again, religion opposes a certain kind of rationality, which leads to less efficient trade situations.

    -Everyone has emotions, they enable us to make decisions. Keep them to a minimum when you can. Emotional people are necessary to keep the gene pool as diverse as possible.
    Keeping emotions to a minimum seems like the wrong message to send. I'd instead say, keep goal-maximization as a higher priority than emotions. I nitpick here because I think emotions help a lot to clue us into what our actual goals are. Spending a little time figuring out the goals is well worth it -- maximizing a pointless goal is, well, pointless.

    -Homosexuality is not a tool that will bring about the end of humanity. Homosexuality is seen in nearly all mammalian species, our species has just taken it to another level. Without medical treatments it will continue to exist only in low abundance. It is not a terrible or catastrophic phenomenon.
    Agree. It's really no problem. Same idea as someone deciding not to have children. Doesn't affect society negatively at all besides the no children thing (which plenty of straight people do).

    Quote Originally Posted by Blank View Post
    You can't really prove that there is no meaning to life. I say there is a subject and objective truth to all things.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    You have no vision.
    Saying "there is no meaning" really means, there is no one meaning of life. From a step-back perspective, there is no reason to believe there is some kind of higher purpose or whatever. We're just tiny gears in some giant complex machine that we aren't even close to understanding. The way I personally resolve this is to say, "Fuck it, there is no set of rules that objectively matters. The rules are what you physically can and cannot do. But I have feelings, and I want them to be good. Therefore maximizing my happiness seems like the best bet. And in order to maximize my happiness, I have to build good relationships with people (to get good trading partners) and have people like me. So I have to be nice, but not to the point that it contradicts my goals, etc."

    Anyways, I think I'm just as "moral" or whatever as anyone else. You don't need religion or anything.

  8. #158

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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    Saying "there is no meaning" really means, there is no one meaning of life.


    There are an infinite number of possible meanings to life; conscious and unconscious.
    We cannot know them all.
    Of those infinite number of possible meanings,
    any person could claim there is but only one meaning of life, to them.
    Or someone could claim there is no meaning at all.
    That implies there is no single meaning, or any meaning.

    There is no right or wrong answer here, there is only opinion.
    That said, I stand by my original opinion:
    Lucifer has no vision.

    As for organized religion--
    I can think of nothing more destructive to the human race.
    It does not unite.
    It divides.
    Think.

  9. #159
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    There are an infinite number of possible meanings to life; conscious and unconscious.
    We cannot know them all.
    Of those infinite number of possible meanings,
    any person could claim there is but only one meaning of life, to them.
    Or someone could claim there is no meaning at all.
    That implies there is no single meaning, or any meaning.

    There is no right or wrong answer here, there is only opinion.
    That said, I stand by my original opinion:
    Lucifer has no vision.

    As for organized religion--
    I can think of nothing more destructive to the human race.
    It does not unite.
    It divides.
    Lucifer said "If people could learn to take solace in the fact that there is not meaning to life and that we can't solve or learn everything, the could free their minds from their restraints."

    What's wrong with that statement?

  10. #160
    Senior Member Lucifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    Saying "there is no meaning" really means, there is no one meaning of life. From a step-back perspective, there is no reason to believe there is some kind of higher purpose or whatever. We're just tiny gears in some giant complex machine that we aren't even close to understanding. The way I personally resolve this is to say, "Fuck it, there is no set of rules that objectively matters. The rules are what you physically can and cannot do. But I have feelings, and I want them to be good. Therefore maximizing my happiness seems like the best bet. And in order to maximize my happiness, I have to build good relationships with people (to get good trading partners) and have people like me. So I have to be nice, but not to the point that it contradicts my goals, etc."

    Anyways, I think I'm just as "moral" or whatever as anyone else. You don't need religion or anything.
    This is exactly what I meant, I didn't realize I needed to articulate it more, bu Evan has done it to a "T".

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    There are an infinite number of possible meanings to life; conscious and unconscious.
    We cannot know them all.
    Of those infinite number of possible meanings,
    any person could claim there is but only one meaning of life, to them.
    Or someone could claim there is no meaning at all.
    That implies there is no single meaning, or any meaning.

    There is no right or wrong answer here, there is only opinion.
    That said, I stand by my original opinion:
    Lucifer has no vision.

    As for organized religion--
    I can think of nothing more destructive to the human race.
    It does not unite.
    It divides.
    The meaning of life is subjective, to everyone, because there is no greater and/or singular meaning. Since there is no single meaning or proven meaning, that also shows that it is subjective because people must guess or deduce the meaning to their existence themselves, as Evan has above, and hence giving himself his own purpose and freeing himself.

    That is what makes religion so dangerous, it tells everyone a singular meaning, that is false. It binds people together under a fake banner and does things in its name.
    This world is mine - in time.

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