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  1. #61
    Free-Rangin' Librarian Jae Rae's Avatar
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    My INTP husband sometimes say things backwards or the exact opposite of what he means. This is often when he's telling me a story. I can catch his meaning, but it's come out all wrong. This is puzzling, given the fact that INTPs are supposed to use such precise language.

    He can also be very imprecise about time, amounts, etc. Eg, how many hours did a job take? "Three. Or five. Or Two." Wait - isn't five hours more than twice as long as two hours? He'll often throw out random numbers that are off by a factor of two or three instead of saying "I don't know."

    The ENTPs I know don't have this problem. They just say "I don't know." And they don't use backwards/opposite speak.

    Jae Rae
    Proud Female Rider in Maverick's Bike Club.

  2. #62
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    Actually, somewhat on that note, I'm curious: do INTPs tend to have difficulty putting their thoughts into words? ENTPs seem to have nooooooo problem with this, but I've been chalking it up to the E more than anything else. Now I'm curious - is it in fact that Ti lends itself to expressing complex concepts more readily? I'm pretty sure other INTJs will back me up on this, but putting our thoughts into words is really, really difficult. I often feel like I've learned to speak Human as a second language.
    I have difficulty putting my thoughts into words. Sometimes I restate what I meant to say a few times before I'm finally satisfied that I said what I meant to say, and gave the impression I meant to give. (This drives my husband insane.) I hate to be misunderstood.

    I tend to be very precise with my choice of words. That's what I love about writing. I can edit and delete to my heart's content until I have said exactly what I mean.

    Sometimes my brain goes on the fritz, and I can't come up with the word I want. And for some reason some obscure "big word" pops into my head, and rather than continuing to stupidly fish for the right word, I go ahead and use the "big word" which after all does mean what I intend to say, but this is usually not a regular word in most people's vocabulary.

    I was on the phone with a friend yesterday and I meant to say something about a certain "facet" or "quality" to his voice and neither word would come to me! The only word in my very blank mind at that moment was "tincture". Tincture?! Who in the world uses tincture?!

    Well, he called me on it - wanted to know what it meant - thank goodness for Google/Answers.com dictionary - and it turned out I used it properly - phew!

    Apparently, the third definition of tincture is this -
    A quality that colors, pervades, or distinguishes.
    Well... that's what I meant.

    Anyhow, I find my awkward use of the language somewhat frustrating. It just puts me up a notch in the "freak" category.



  3. #63
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    I read about an ENTP writer who could dictate an original and logically well constructed detective novel to his secretary in a day.
    The ENTP has got the NP function (Ne) unhindered.
    Alas the INTP has the critical function Ti above the Ne.
    Wow! Awesome, huh?!

    That reminds me of the character in the movie Out of Africa - Karen Blixen - played by Meryl Streep (excellent drama, by the way, if you haven't seen it). Remember how she could tell an entire story based on being given the first line by one of her listeners? The movie gives the impression her stories were quite lengthy, perhaps between 1-2 hours. I don't know if Ms. Blixen was able to do that in real life.

  4. #64
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OK Radio View Post
    ... I struggle with keeping to the ideal of providing the proper wording in the briefest fashion to convey my exact meaning.

    It bothers me to be too wordy or, even worse, have my meaning misunderstood. I attempt to be brief and on topic to the point of sounding curt or insensitive.

    I'll err on the side of rambling if it means getting my ultimate point across, but it always makes me uneasy to go on at length. ...
    I feel exactly this way.

  5. #65
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by "?" View Post
    ...In laymen terms, INTJ may be careful in discussing their thoughts, because they may have a vague understanding themselves...
    Precisely.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    ... In my personal estimation, part of an INTJ's "individuality" comes from having attempted countless times to communicate what he has in mind, only to be met with smirky aren't-you-forgettings, what-abouts, and you're-just-assumings. Perhaps other INTJs have had different experiences...
    I have experienced this uncomfortable situation countless times, as well.

    Since the following is anecdotal, I will stick to the first-person:

    It's a bit frustrating; I can't even have meaningful conversations with other NTs. In my experience, XNTPs are always too preoccupied with dissecting the metaphors, allegories, and terms I used to attempt to put into concrete language the miasma that is my internal experience that they are either incapable of or unwilling to see what it is that I'm trying to say. ...
    This is extremely frustrating for me, too, though I have even more trouble with S types on this.

    Quote Originally Posted by TinyCerebellum View Post
    I'd just like to add that, in my personal experience, the request I get most often when I try to explain my ideas is "can you give me an example?" ... and this, of course, is the hardest thing to do for me. Even though I am quite aware of this issue, I often seem to forget about it until I get hit with the request, and then follows the long pause where I desperately try to search my thoughts for a concrete and relevant example, which would illustrate my point more effectively. In the meantime, my mind gets bombarded with a million comparisons and metaphors, and yet none of them seem to be relevant enough. In the end I just choose one of them and go with it, hoping that the other person will pick out the inconsistencies and then focus on the relevant bits, further developing the example on their own with other related examples.

    This whole process can be quite frustrating sometimes ...
    Don't I know it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cindyrella View Post
    The INTJ I knew could write eloquently, but was a perfectionist who mulled over phrasing and word choice to the point where writing a paragraph was an incredibly long process. ...
    I have spent over an hour sometimes "crafting" a post for a forum!

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    ...
    INTJ's and INFJ's are the two types that have the most difficulty communicating. Their Ni gives them amazing insight, but most INJ's don't have a well developed function that they can use to effectively communicate those insights. With INTJ's I've found that it takes several tries before they can precisely state what they mean. With INFJ's (the very few I know) I've found that they just use words like "thingy" or "stuff" or maybe just invent their own vocabulary to express what they mean. I actually believe that this communication difficulty is why INFJ's are sometimes described as psychic. They can have amazing insights into human emotions and psyche, but they don't usually have an effective way to communicate those insights, so people just say they are psychic. (Insights without explanation)

    Often with an INTJ what I will do is ask him/her to clarify or elaborate on his/her thoughts, or sometimes I simply try to rephrase their thoughts into my own words. Then they can tell me if I understand them correctly or they can try again to say what they mean. Not only does this help communication, but I find in doing this it helps the INTJ give some concrete detail to some of the "fuzzy hard to explain parts" of their thoughts. Also in this process they often change some of the details in their thinking. INTJ's are actually very flexible mentally; they only appear rigid outwardly. Once you get to know them you will find they will readily change their opinion on something in order to get the most logical or efficient result.
    Thank you for the valuable insights.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metamorphosis View Post
    I think my problem is that I might skip over what I consider to be stupid details, expecting that the listener will understand what I am saying.

    Basically, I think that our problem isn't that we have trouble putting our thoughts into words, it's that our speaking manner can only be understood by Ns.

    Edit to add: I have noticed some weird problems at work, though (I'm a waiter at Chili's). Sometimes I will walk up to a table without having any idea what I am about to say, and just start talking. Normally, this works out ok, but occasionally some random ... bursts out that doesn't make any sense....
    I can relate to this, too.

    Sometimes, I have to rehearse in my mind what I want to say, if I'm afraid to say something stupid.

    Once I wanted to congratulate a Navy boss who had been made a Commander and I practiced for about 10-15 minutes what I wanted to say. My "little speech" was entirely sincere and heartfelt, but in order to say everything I felt, I had to practice it ahead of time. It was probably only 2 sentences.

    Most unfortunately, besides myself and the Commander, someone else was standing there who overheard what I said, and had the gall to ask me right then and there if I had practiced that little speech. I said nothing. Since I meant every word, I didn't see how I could possibly have done anything wrong. It was 25 years ago and it still bothers me that a total stranger would embarrass me that way.

  6. #66
    Senior Member FallsPioneer's Avatar
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    I will have trouble if:

    -I feel slightly awkward
    -I feel I haven't processed a thought fully
    Still using a needle to break apart a grain of sand.

  7. #67
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    hmmmm, i feel like INTPs are extremely clear. sometimes i have to ask INTJs to explain something further, though. i would say Ni is much harder to follow.

    except... it seems like INFJs way more clear than INFPs .... hmmm...

  8. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    Actually, somewhat on that note, I'm curious: do INTPs tend to have difficulty putting their thoughts into words? ENTPs seem to have nooooooo problem with this, but I've been chalking it up to the E more than anything else. Now I'm curious - is it in fact that Ti lends itself to expressing complex concepts more readily? I'm pretty sure other INTJs will back me up on this, but putting our thoughts into words is really, really difficult. I often feel like I've learned to speak Human as a second language.
    My brilliant INTJ best friend is awesome at explaining things to me--but this is an ISTP talking. I may just be further off the end of the communication scale.

  9. #69
    . Blank's Avatar
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    I think we all have difficulty expressing our thoughts, images, or ideas into words, but I personally don't feel as though I have more trouble than other people.

    Verbally I may look off into nowhere until I can come up with the right word in order to articulate my thought, or I'll gesticulate wildly, hoping that the person can grasp what I mean to say, but we all have moments like that.

    Other times when I'm writing and I'm trying to express myself, I may pause, trying to remember a word, but I think that the limitation of language prevents me from properly articulating exactly what I mean, rather than me being less capable or more prone to have difficulties than any other person.
    Ti = 19 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Te = 16[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Ne = 16[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Fi = 15 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Si = 12 [][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Ni = 12 [][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Se = 11[][][][][][][][][][][]
    Fe = 0

    -----------------
    Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly;
    Man got to sit and wonder why, why, why;
    Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land;
    Man got to tell himself he understand

  10. #70
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    I have a terrible time putting my thoughts to (spoken) words. I will have just written an entire paper full of intricate arguments, but then when it comes time to explain them in a presentation, it's (?). And even if I have a better grip on the situation, due to having written my thoughts down beforehand or overly-rehearsed, my articulation is still pretty bad, and I tend to be too general. I have a lot of "uhs" and "uhms," and I gesture wildly, as though this will help impart my thoughts to others. I also tend to accidentally say exactly the opposite of what I mean. I think I'm like Demosthenes was before he trained himself into great speaking shape.

    And I think this is a problem that affects me more than other people. Or at least, more than other people I'm around. Of course, the people around me are assholes and don't make an attempt to understand the gist of what I'm saying, so that's a factor.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

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